How much does sharpening reduce the value of a bayonet?
- Thread starter David Scott
- Start date
It really does depend on the bayonet. I have seen thousands of bayos in crates and on pallets. Depending on where they came from they were sharpened and for good reason. That reason often was because it was the only utility tool the troopie had at his disposal and then because he didn't want to add more weight carrying another knife.
Anything out of Africa or South America or the Middle East stood a very good chance of being sharpened for the above reasons, even if they weren't issued that way.
A No 5 bayo, unsharpened with a scabbard in unrusted condition will start around $300 and go up from there. Be careful though because the Indians/Pakistanis still make them as replacements for the lost/broken/damaged/worn out bayos on the No5s they still issue. They are usually marked by their makers. RFI being one of the marks but there are others as well. A few years ago those were selling under $25 without scabbards which were offered at $10. Then some entrepreneur in the US found a bunch of original scabbards that had been used for FN FAL bayonets. Those sold for a bit more but not much.
I sold 6 No5 bayos with scabbards that ranged from Good to Excellent condition in Chilliwack last spring. They lasted for less than two hours on my table. The cheapest was Good only and sold for the $250 asking price first. The rest sold for asking price including the two excellent pieces with scabbards at $350 each. The buyers didn't even try to haggle.
Anything out of Africa or South America or the Middle East stood a very good chance of being sharpened for the above reasons, even if they weren't issued that way.
A No 5 bayo, unsharpened with a scabbard in unrusted condition will start around $300 and go up from there. Be careful though because the Indians/Pakistanis still make them as replacements for the lost/broken/damaged/worn out bayos on the No5s they still issue. They are usually marked by their makers. RFI being one of the marks but there are others as well. A few years ago those were selling under $25 without scabbards which were offered at $10. Then some entrepreneur in the US found a bunch of original scabbards that had been used for FN FAL bayonets. Those sold for a bit more but not much.
I sold 6 No5 bayos with scabbards that ranged from Good to Excellent condition in Chilliwack last spring. They lasted for less than two hours on my table. The cheapest was Good only and sold for the $250 asking price first. The rest sold for asking price including the two excellent pieces with scabbards at $350 each. The buyers didn't even try to haggle.
Cottage Hill Bill
CGN Regular
- Location
- Pensacola, FL USA
With P-1907s the question is service sharpened or Bubba sharpened. Once you've seen a couple of service sharpened 1907s it is easy to spot the difference. I wouldn't reduce the price for a service sharpened 1907 but definitely would for bubba's job. If fact, a sharpening job by bubba is usually a deal breaker. Later British bayonets like the No.7 or No.9 didn't seem to ever see a stone in service.
It really depends on what you want in your collection.
It really depends on what you want in your collection.
- Location
- Blaster land, Okanagan BC
Both the Aussie 1907 bayonets I have had an edge ground into them, I always figured they were Arsenal ground. The look real uniform and not done with a grinder in some dudes garage. One iirc is blued identical to the blade, I'll have to take a look at them next time I pull the no.1 out. The polish refurb svt bayo is the same, nice edge from the refurb process. It's bloody sharp actually...
1907 bayonets were never, ever sharpened from the arsenal. I think more often than not, the sharpening of bayonets during war time operations was busy work/ moral booster (esprit de-camp) rather than a bona fide concern for having to use them as bayonets. For me the sharpening would drop the value by half without the proper evidence that it was ordered sharpened while issued. (anything else is a nice story.)
- Location
- Blaster land, Okanagan BC
Are you sure about that, I've seen mention of Aussies grinding an edge before. The pics already posted tend to back that up. I'm no expert though.
Here's some pics of one of the two I have.
Here's some pics of one of the two I have.
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^Nice story.
- Location
- Blaster land, Okanagan BC
Lol, it's too bad these old pieces couldn't talk.
This discussion has been very helpful
I was the original poster and this was the bayonet I was considering buying that prompted the question about the value reduction caused by sharpening. I found this discussion helpful and educational. I went through with the purchase of the Lee Enfield No.5 bayonet (Jungle Carbine). I think the blade has been lightly sharpened, if there is such a thing as lightly sharpened in the bayonet collecting world. Final purchase price was 190$. The bayonet is marked, P 1946, The scabbard has the stamp S286 on it. Any comments on the deal? Did I over pay for this bayonet?
I was the original poster and this was the bayonet I was considering buying that prompted the question about the value reduction caused by sharpening. I found this discussion helpful and educational. I went through with the purchase of the Lee Enfield No.5 bayonet (Jungle Carbine). I think the blade has been lightly sharpened, if there is such a thing as lightly sharpened in the bayonet collecting world. Final purchase price was 190$. The bayonet is marked, P 1946, The scabbard has the stamp S286 on it. Any comments on the deal? Did I over pay for this bayonet?
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Cottage Hill Bill
CGN Regular
- Location
- Pensacola, FL USA
British swords and bayonets were not sharpened at the factory, or arsenal as plinker says. They were however sharpened by the unit armourer when the unit was called to active service. P-1908 swords and P-1907 bayonets were definitely sharpened at the unit level in France. Of my four P-1908s two are service sharpened, one of which still has traces of khaki paint ( also applied at unit level). AS butcherbill commented, the service sharpened bayonets have a very uniform, narrow edge to them. It only takes seeing a couple to be able to easily distinguish from bubba's handiwork.
highlander
CGN Ultra frequent flyer
- Location
- Newfoundland
I can recall sitting around in our tent while on exercise in Germany, chatting with the other guys, and working my bayonet on a sharpening stone; more for the sake of nothing better to do. When I went to turn the bayonet in when my tour was up about six guys in the unit ask me to swap bayonets with them; mine was almost sharp enough to shave with.
Good memories.
I was the original poster and this was the bayonet I was considering buying that prompted the question about the value reduction caused by sharpening. I found this discussion helpful and educational. I went through with the purchase of the Lee Enfield No.5 bayonet (Jungle Carbine). I think the blade has been lightly sharpened, if there is such a thing as lightly sharpened in the bayonet collecting world. Final purchase price was 190$. The bayonet is marked, P 1946, The scabbard has the stamp S286 on it. Any comments on the deal? Did I over pay for this bayonet?
A word to the wise, if you're happy with your acquisition you never can pay "too much"{collector}. If you are investing with the intention to sell for profit, you can never pay too little! Lol.
@ Cottage Hill Bill; I'm not aware of unit armourers sharpening bayonets when the unit is called into active service? Where do you get your info from?
[QUOTE A word to the wise, if you're happy with your acquisition you never can pay "too much"{collector}. If you are investing with the intention to sell for profit, you can never pay too little!QUOTE)
I like this quote. However I think I am more of a collector than an investor so I tend to pay too much, but I am still happy with my purchase!
I like this quote. However I think I am more of a collector than an investor so I tend to pay too much, but I am still happy with my purchase!
Would it be okay with everyone if we expand this thread to discuss more aspects of bayonets, perhaps talking about which bayonets
are easy to locate and which are difficult as well as prices for the different sorts?
Regarding sharpening bayonets, many seem to be set up for use as a knife, with a real handle. Would that not indicate that soldiers
were expected to use them as a knife and so they would HAVE to sharpen them?
Then there are other bayonets, like the SKS that are obviously not intended for use as a knife. Why did they make them so dull?
are easy to locate and which are difficult as well as prices for the different sorts?
Regarding sharpening bayonets, many seem to be set up for use as a knife, with a real handle. Would that not indicate that soldiers
were expected to use them as a knife and so they would HAVE to sharpen them?
Then there are other bayonets, like the SKS that are obviously not intended for use as a knife. Why did they make them so dull?
IMHO, your price was fair. That bayo was obviously not done by an armorer with the proper equipment but as mentioned by Highlander a lot of them got sharpened. Back in 1968 Lever Arms brought in a few thousand 1907s that were in lovely condition including the scabbards. All were marked Wilkinson and all were out of the UK. All of them had been sharpened. I can remember Alan being POed about them being sharpened so he put them on sale for $1 each. The folks from the 3 Vets store and the Army Navy came over and each bought half of the remaining stock. From what a fading memory tells me is we filled the box of each of the pick up trucks with these bayos until you couldn't get more in and the springs were sagging.
The 3Vets sold them for $1.50 and the A&N sold them for the same. They put them out in small wooden barrels normally used for shipping nails. In about a month they were back looking for more. Turns out they were great weed whackers and small brush whackers. Back then a lot of people used to plant Comfrey and Bamboo in their gardens. Much to their chagrin those plants would take over the yard in a few seasons.
I wish I had that whole shipment now. P&S used to have three different 1907 type bayos from Australia/UK/India. I don't remember the price on them. My bad but I was in the middle of Chemotherapy at the time but I did have my wits about me enough to pick up one of each. Those Indian short 1907s were and still are relatively hard to find. Oh all were sharpened.
Eaglelord17
CGN Ultra frequent flyer
- Location
- Sault Ste. Marie
Regarding sharpening bayonets, many seem to be set up for use as a knife, with a real handle. Would that not indicate that soldiers
were expected to use them as a knife and so they would HAVE to sharpen them?
Then there are other bayonets, like the SKS that are obviously not intended for use as a knife. Why did they make them so dull?
The bayonet is not intended to be used as a knife, it is intended to turn your rifle into a spear. A cutting edge serves no purpose and can in many cases lead to injury of the user (like on the parade square where bayonets are primarily used). A cutting edge can also lead to your bayonet getting caught in the person rather than just sliding out. If they were meant to be sharp they would be issued sharp.
Spike bayonets were the norm for a long time, as they are cheap and easy to make. I personally believe that knife bayonets have made a surge for three reasons. One the Geneva convention somewhat prohibits the concept of weapons which cause 'unnecessary suffering'. Same deal as three sided knives, spike bayonets make the wound difficult to patch. This point can be debated as it is unclear in the exact meaning of 'unnecessary suffering'. The second reason is that a knife or sword bayonet is simply more intimidating than a standard spike. The third reason is a knife or sword bayonet looks better on the parade square.
The reason I believe knife bayonets are also more popular that sword bayonets is because a sword bayonet is larger, more expensive, and awkward to hold on to.
Would it be okay with everyone if we expand this thread to discuss more aspects of bayonets, perhaps talking about which bayonets
are easy to locate and which are difficult as well as prices for the different sorts?
Regarding sharpening bayonets, many seem to be set up for use as a knife, with a real handle. Would that not indicate that soldiers
were expected to use them as a knife and so they would HAVE to sharpen them?
Then there are other bayonets, like the SKS that are obviously not intended for use as a knife. Why did they make them so dull?
Bayo's weren't used as knives (particularly 1907's). The steel is sh1t (some will argue
),and they are too unbalanced and unwieldy to be effectively used as a knife. WW1 had british troops issued with a pocket folder (you can still find them every now and again).To your last question, first off we have to understand that a bayonet is like a security blanket for the soldier it's issued to. I can't recall the statistics, but they reveal a wildly low occurrence of bayonets ever being actually used as bayonets in the defence or advance of troops. Having said that, when RSM gives his pep talk during bayonet drills it must be reassuring to understand that if and when unwholly sh1t hits the fan, the rifle turns into an effective spear with the flick of the wrist and a click of the lock.
Dull v Sharp...here's where things turn a bit weird as I've never seen any evidence of this being true, however, I have heard that a dull blade (SKS) will penetrate a chest of a man pushing the rib bones apart, tearing flesh, muscle, ligament, tendon and or any other connective tissue and interrupt internal organs and or blood vessels without cutting, thereby making the extraction easier. A sharp blade will cut into the rib bone making extraction difficult (think pinched saw blade on a log)...again, all wildly theoretic I believe, but that's the story such as it is. Statistically, I believe 99.9999999999998% of bayonets are used like the Highlander's story.
Eaglelord kinda beat me to it
.Question: It has been solidly documented that Japanese (Drunken/Bloodlusted) soldiers took bayonet practice on POW's and "criminals" during the 1940's. Was it Japanese practice to sharpen the bayonet? (Please let's leave it to bayonets and not their katana's or what they did with them.)
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Eaglelord17
CGN Ultra frequent flyer
- Location
- Sault Ste. Marie
My Japanese Type 30 bayonet (which by the way is a very nice bayonet, likely my favourite in my small collection), is unsharpened. It is a early Type 30 bayonet made by Toyoda Jidoshoki Seisakusho (Toyoda Automatic Loom Works) under Nagoya supervision. I have never heard of the Japanese sharpening the bayonet, however I haven't done much research into it.
Interesting.
