How much fps, weight or diameter does it take to make a difference?

There's a whole lot of velocity fantasy in some 7 Rem Mag loads. Many of them won't out-run a 30-06.

Well I don't really agree but I do see your point. I could load my 7mm mag to easily out run a 30-06. In fact my 7mm mag outperforms my previousl 30-06 any day of the week. That is why sold it. However my Tikka does not like bullet velocities over 3100 fps or lower than 3000 fsp so I don't push the envelope. Accuracy is better than speed.

However, you are right that some published velocities for the 7mm mag are sometimes quite high and not that realisitic. In fact I have heard guys talk on this forum about their 7mm mag pushing a 150-160 grain bullet at 3250+ fsp :rolleyes: I don't believe it.
 
Exactly.

If there's not that much difference between the .30-30 and the .300 Savage, and not that much between the .300 Savage and .308 Win, and really what can a .30-06 can do that a .308 Win can't, and the difference between the .30-06 and the .300 Win Mag is negligable, then the .30-30 Win and the .300 Win Mag are in the same category, right?:stirthepot2:

I'm late to this party. But when I said the exact same thing on another thread, I almost got lynched.

BCSTEVE, I hear what you're saying!
 
I like velocity [up to a point] but not because I think it KILLS better. I like velocity because a flatter shooting bullet makes HITTING the right spot easier. The slower the bullet, the less forgiving it is when you're estimating distances.
 
I could load my 7mm mag to easily out run a 30-06. In fact my 7mm mag outperforms my previousl 30-06 any day of the week.

I hear people say "out run" or "out perform" frequently, but if all this is measuring is velocity, its not really "out performing" anything. If an '06 150gr is capable of .75" groups at 3000fps, and a 7mmRM is capable of .75" groups at 3100fps, which one is "out performing"?

Neither in my opinion, as they will both end in the same result, dead animals. The 7mm may have .5" less drop at 300yds, but hardly performed any better...

A friend once told me that his .300WM will "out-shoot" my .338WM any day. I asked him to explain and he couldn't. In similar bullet weights, they are identical performing, but he thought the .338 would drop like a stone after 200yds...As well he shoots factory ammo and couldn't match my sub-moa groups, so I guess I "out-shot" his rifle...
 
I like velocity [up to a point] but not because I think it KILLS better. I like velocity because a flatter shooting bullet makes HITTING the right spot easier. The slower the bullet, the less forgiving it is when you're estimating distances.

True enough and where those aspects of range or distance and resulting trajectory knowledge really become vital is if you're into archery. So,:) as you've indicated, the benefits of speed and flatter shooting does make 'things' more forgiving and a little easier.
 
Neither in my opinion, as they will both end in the same result, dead animals

This is true.

I like velocity because a flatter shooting bullet makes HITTING the right spot easier.

This is why I like the 7mm mag over the 30-06. Although it is only a personal opinon and there have only been a few times it has really been a difference but I sure did appreciate it.

A friend once told me that his .300WM will "out-shoot" my .338WM any day

Would the recoil make the 338WM harder to shoot ? I am asking as I have only ever shot a 300WM not a 338.
 
Would the recoil make the 338WM harder to shoot ?

Not for me, but I shoot a lot more than he does. My .338WM's actually felt like less recoil than the .300's I've owned, but most of the .300's were lighter by 8 oz.
 
And that is the only law like that in BC. Other than that it's just "no rimfire" or "no shotgun" or "no single projectile"

I'm glad we don't have the silly extra laws some other provinces do.

Laws keep idiots from making poor choices like shooting a grizzley with a pea shooter. This really surprises me considering the governments you've had. ;)
 
My setup can easily "out run" the 7 Remington Magnum and the 30-06.

Those are really under achiever's and quite slow.

They do have their place though I guess.

MY SETUP .................


24 Bohemian beer and size 13 rubber boots on size 10 feet!! try and catch me!!!!!


Well I don't really agree but I do see your point. I could load my 7mm mag to easily out run a 30-06. In fact my 7mm mag outperforms my previousl 30-06 any day of the week. That is why sold it. However my Tikka does not like bullet velocities over 3100 fps or lower than 3000 fsp so I don't push the envelope. Accuracy is better than speed.

However, you are right that some published velocities for the 7mm mag are sometimes quite high and not that realisitic. In fact I have heard guys talk on this forum about their 7mm mag pushing a 150-160 grain bullet at 3250+ fsp :rolleyes: I don't believe it.
 
Laws keep idiots from making poor choices like shooting a grizzley with a pea shooter. This really surprises me considering the governments you've had. ;)

Well, the largest grizzly bear ever shot in Alberta was taken back in 1953 by a 63-year-old Native woman. As the story goes, Bella Twin was picking berries near Slave Lake when she encountered a huge bear that had obviously decided the berries were his for the taking, and his alone. Defending herself the only way she could, Twin lifted the rifle she always carried, pointed it quickly and fired. The great bear fell to the ground, stone dead, a single shot to the brain. To this day, Twin’s grizzly stands as the longest-reigning provincial big-game record in Alberta, and it may well never be broken. There are varying accounts of the incident, but all agree on one thing: Twin did the job with the humblest of rifles, a single-shot .22.

Of course, this took place in Alberta and not BC...:D
 
Well, the largest grizzly bear ever shot in Alberta was taken back in 1953 by a 63-year-old Native woman. As the story goes, Bella Twin was picking berries near Slave Lake when she encountered a huge bear that had obviously decided the berries were his for the taking, and his alone. Defending herself the only way she could, Twin lifted the rifle she always carried, pointed it quickly and fired. The great bear fell to the ground, stone dead, a single shot to the brain. To this day, Twin’s grizzly stands as the longest-reigning provincial big-game record in Alberta, and it may well never be broken. There are varying accounts of the incident, but all agree on one thing: Twin did the job with the humblest of rifles, a single-shot .22.

Of course, this took place in Alberta and not BC...:D

Know the story and thats called making due with what you got, not choosing to hunt grizzley with a .22. ;)
 
Bella's prowess as a huntress doesn't make a .22 rimfire a good big game cartridge, it just means that under some very specific circumstances it can be made to work. This also brings to focus the fact that there is a different mindset between subsistence hunting and sport hunting. I suspect many sport hunters would find subsistence hunting unfulfilling, in more ways than one, even though that historically that was the point of hunting. In order to make my definition of a good big game cartridge; there must be a reasonable expectation of killing the target animal with a single shot, from any angle, within the range limitations of the rifle and the hunter. On all North American game and much African game this can be done with most cartridges of 6.5 or greater bore size. In the end though, it is the performance of the bullet that determines if a shot is successful.

Velocity and accuracy are almost irrelevant to the question. High velocity provides us with the ability to hit at greater range, but without a means of determining range, it's advantage is lost on many hunters who are often poor judges of range. With the increase of impact velocity, the quality of the bullet must meet a higher standard if it is to perform without failure. Accuracy is a great confidence builder, but one doesn't need a half minute rifle to hit a moose at 80 yards, and if the hunter is excited by the sight of his moose, but winded from exertion, not to mention wet and cold, and forced to shoot quickly, chances are he couldn't hold tight enough to shoot up to an AK with a bent barrel, never mind a 1.5 MOA scope sighted hunting rifle. Of course as range increases, the hunter is provided the opportunity to take his time and shoot from a rested position at a game animal that is unaware of its peril. This is where a flat shooting rifle shines, but most modern cartridges shoot flat enough with the right bullet to make such a shot a simple matter, provided the animal remains stationary, the wind cooperates, and our hunter doesn't mash the trigger because his fingers are so cold he can't feel the contact. Even here though, a 2 minute rifle is more than enough over normal hunting ranges, but that depends how we measure accuracy.

Townsend Whelen's measure of the accuracy potential of a rifle and load was by firing a 20 shot group at 300 yards. While this might provide an index of accuracy, it doesn't tell us what we need to know because animals are not killed with a group, they are generally killed with 3 shots or less, or they escape wounded. What matters is where those first shots from a cold barrel hit the animals relative to the point of aim. If the animal is killed with a single bullet that impacts 4" from the point of aim, at a range of 100 yards, one can make the claim it was killed with 8 minutes of accuracy, as it would not be unreasonable to assume that the rifle was sighted to hit in the center of its group potential, so then a subsequent shot could be 4" on the other side of the aiming point. The critter doesn't know the difference of course, as he was killed with the first shot, and from the discussions on these pages by those insisting on varmint rifle accuracy, many hunters don't know the difference either.
 
Laws keep idiots from making poor choices like shooting a grizzley with a pea shooter. This really surprises me considering the governments you've had. ;)

Idiots make poor choices everyday despite many laws against their behavior.

As I said- I'm glad we don't have the silly extra laws some other provinces do. Most of these laws accomplish virtually nothing worthwhile.
 
Here is an account of a fellow I know up in Alaska. He used a 44-40, his two friends used a 458 Win Mag and a 375 H&H. The events occurred last fall. Here is what he wrote to me:

I pumped three shots into this average 55" Alaskan bull at about 50 yards. The first two
bullets were into the chest behind the front leg and the latter a little further back. He was in very thick cover. I could only see the tops of his palms at first but waited until he turned broadside to walk away before firing through a narrow opening. He didn't take two steps after the initial hit.

I found two out of the three slugs. One was just under the off hide and the other about an inch from it. the original cast bullets weighed 210gr. The recovered bullets were 203 and 206 grains.

My two friends used more modern calibers: 375 H&H magnum and 458 Winchester magnum of all things. The 44 WCF dropped and killed my bull faster than either of theirs shot in a similar fashion and distance. I found that to be of interest.

"My cousin's cousin from Missouri used the Win 458 mag. He shot his bull at about 50 yards. It hit the deck pronto. But he had to give it two finishers, one with another 510 gr. 458 and the final with a 300 gr. JSP from his 44 mag.

My other friend used the 375 H&H mag with 200-something gr. Barnes X bullets. The first shot through the chest and into the far shoulder sent it running through the brush for about 80-100 yds. He chased it like a Banshee and shot it twice more to seal the deal. A fourth round didn't connect. We recovered all three of the properly aimed projectiles.

None of the big boomers killed the moose in these instances any better than the humble 44 WCF. My hunting partners are accustomed to my desire to use more traditional cartridges on my annual moose hunt. I haven't used a scoped rifle since 1987. With an exception of an O/U Browning rifle in 270 Win, I have exclusively taken my bulls with revolvers or vintage Winchester lever guns."
 
Here is an account of a fellow I know up in Alaska. He used a 44-40, his two friends used a 458 Win Mag and a 375 H&H. The events occurred last fall. Here is what he wrote to me:

I pumped three shots into this average 55" Alaskan bull at about 50 yards. The first two
bullets were into the chest behind the front leg and the latter a little further back. He was in very thick cover. I could only see the tops of his palms at first but waited until he turned broadside to walk away before firing through a narrow opening. He didn't take two steps after the initial hit.

I found two out of the three slugs. One was just under the off hide and the other about an inch from it. the original cast bullets weighed 210gr. The recovered bullets were 203 and 206 grains.

My two friends used more modern calibers: 375 H&H magnum and 458 Winchester magnum of all things. The 44 WCF dropped and killed my bull faster than either of theirs shot in a similar fashion and distance. I found that to be of interest.

"My cousin's cousin from Missouri used the Win 458 mag. He shot his bull at about 50 yards. It hit the deck pronto. But he had to give it two finishers, one with another 510 gr. 458 and the final with a 300 gr. JSP from his 44 mag.

My other friend used the 375 H&H mag with 200-something gr. Barnes X bullets. The first shot through the chest and into the far shoulder sent it running through the brush for about 80-100 yds. He chased it like a Banshee and shot it twice more to seal the deal. A fourth round didn't connect. We recovered all three of the properly aimed projectiles.

None of the big boomers killed the moose in these instances any better than the humble 44 WCF. My hunting partners are accustomed to my desire to use more traditional cartridges on my annual moose hunt. I haven't used a scoped rifle since 1987. With an exception of an O/U Browning rifle in 270 Win, I have exclusively taken my bulls with revolvers or vintage Winchester lever guns."

Here is yet another example of an anecdotal account leading the reader to a faulty conclusion; specifically that a subsonic pistol cartridge can kill big game faster and more humanely than two of the most successful big game rifle cartridges ever to come down the pike. Things happen for a reason, and if the .44-40 worked, in that instance, apparently better than either the .375 or the .458, there is a reason for it, despite what appears to be a disconnect with logic.

According to the account, there is little fault to be found with the .458's performance, the moose went down to a single shot, and was unable to get back on his feet, as was seemingly proper under the circumstances. Had he been left, he would have bled out in due course, but it was felt that under the circumstances a finishing shot was humane and prudent, but the bullet didn't follow a tract that would immediately kill the critter. This was subsequently accomplished with the .44 belt gun. Just firing blindly into a downed animal without consideration of what, if anything, your bullet might hit, will not produce the desired effect, and it doesn't much matter what you use.

The .375 was loaded with an X bullet, which suggests a bullet made prior to the introduction of the TSXs, and probably in the popular 270 gr weight. The earlier Xs in .375 caliber had some problems, as they were designed to expand only when impacting on very dense targets like African buffalo, which was the perceived purpose of that particular bullet. As a result these bullets developed a reputation for inconsistent, expansion and performance on lighter North American game, even moose. Consider that the 270 gr X has a pointed profile, so without some moderate upset it would not produce the wound volume necessary to quickly incapacitate an animal as big as a moose. Although he says that the 3 bullets were recovered, he doesn't comment on their condition. When a bullet fails to perform in the way it was designed to, the big game animal wounded by it can travel a long way if pushed by an eager hunter. No disrespect is intended here toward the hunter armed with the .375, my preference is to follow up immediately after a shot as well. In the end though, this moose travelled but a short distance before it piled up.

In the final tally, each moose was shot 3 times, including the one shot with the .44-40!

In dense bush where the range is short, the .44-40 can certainly put meat in the freezer, but had the hunt been made on the tundra, or along a lake shore, where the range could extend well beyond 100 yards, the .44-40 hunter could have been left with little more than track soup.
 
I think the point in the above account is that, although the 458 Win Mag and the 375 H&H Mag are far more powerful than the 44-40, a properly placed broadhead arrow, or a handgun round, or a 44-40 rifle round is not as disadvantaged as the huge difference in muzzle energy might suggest. Like the Alaskan fellow who's account I mentioned above, I sold off all my modern, high velocity, flat shooting modern rifles some 20 years ago and have hunted exclusively with the old Winchester and Marlin cartridges invented in the last quarter of the 1800's. I have found that the old lead bullets don't kill any slower or faster than the modern cartridges with their high tech, specially designed bullets, if proper shot placement is carried out. Everyone knows that a 7mm Rem Mag is far more powerful than a 44-40 (which is what I harvested my last deer with). This past fall, a friend of mine shot a small Whitetail buck in the heart at 25 yards with his 7mm Rem Mag. The heart was blown to rags and completely detached from anything else. The small buck showed no sign of being hit and bolted 85 yards and disappeared into the bush. We found it about 10 yards in. When we opened it up, we saw the mangled mess that was once its heart. Heart-shot Whitetail deer will run, but they don't run any further if shot with a slow moving lead bullet, a broadhead arrow, or something that blows their heart to smithereens.

Of course, I'm talking about hunting within the capabilities of your broadhead arrow, or handgun, or pistol cartridge, or 50 BMG. The more powerful, flatter-shooting cartridges will obviously extend the range far more than a broadhead arrow at the other end of the spectrum. When all is said and done, however, small differences in bullet diameter, small differences in bullet weight, or small differences in bullet muzzle velocity do not make any significant difference in how fast an animal dies given the same shot placement. I will grant that big differences can make a big difference, especially for dangerous African game, but most of the fellows on this forum are hunting North American game. Next fall, I will be hunting with one of my 38-40 rifles and I am perfectly confident it will do the job with a 180 grain bullet cast out of used wheel weights, travelling at 1,300 fps. Range in the bush where I will be hunting will be 50 yards max. If I were hunting Pronghorn antelope, I would have to do a nice job of stalking to get within 100 yards, but that is a major part of what I enjoy as a hunter. Knocking something over at 400 yards with a 3,500 fps bullet and a 25X scope and a bipod rifle just doesn't do it for me. It is just too easy. Of course, the bowhunters that use a longbow think what I do is just too easy, but I will admit that even a lowly broadhead arrow is not that much 'undergunned' when used and placed within the capabilities of a longbow. I tend to think that what sort of bow, or pistol, or rifle, or cartridge a fellow uses has a lot more to do with what he likes and enjoys. Rather than worry about trivial differences in bullet diameter, I think a fellow should just get what he enjoys most and then learn to hunt within the capabilities of that particular choice.
 
Well, 38-55 and Boomer, this is sort of a case where neither of you can be wrong.
Since I grew up in a place and at a time where whole communities llived on wild meat year around, or went hungry, I hear Dirk loud and clear. The rifles these people used were just the rifles they happened to come by, cheap. A lot of these men were supurb hunters. The bush Natives, Indians, of that age were the best hunters, but some white men were on a par with them. Some native hunters, and some white men, including my older brother, could smell game in the bush. I've seen my brother do this, smelled the little herd of elk in the bush, before any indication of their tracks was seen.
The modern "hunters," who swarm into the backwoods every fall with the most modern of equipment, including every gadget invented to help them get game, do not have the foggiest idea of what real hunting is all about.
Because some, but by no means not all, of the old timers were such good hunters, they made do with rifles considered too light for the job, by todays standards. A 351 Winchester self loading has less energy than a 44-40. One man, whom I knew very well, had a 351 and bought a box of 20 shells for it. By the time those shells were gone, he had killed nine moose with that box of ammunition, and never wounded any that got away.
The most extreme case of a light moose rifle that I heard of, came from a supurb hunter and trapper, whom I also knew very well. He told me a 32-20 was the lightest rifle he had shot moose with. He said there wasn't enough power in the bullet to reliably penetrate into the lung area. Instead, he aimed for the little spot near the hip, where the bullet would penetrate the kidney. He would fire one shot, then wait and eventually the moose would fall.
Now don't anyone start to scream about humane or ethical hunting.
In the little country school I went to, I have seen a family of four kids come to school in the winter time with only dry bread in their lunch pails. Then one day from our school, we actually heard the rifle shots. In a day or two those kids lunch pails were filled with cooked moose meat. At reccess and noon, they made a dash to their pails and wolfed down the meat like hungry dogs.
Would you like to go to their home and preach to the dad about humane, or ethical hunting?
 
^I agree that those are unusual circumstances and not necessarily what "modern" hunters have to deal with. Its like when someone ask if such and such cartridge if sufficient for hunting such and such game. There's always someone who will respond that of course it is because Inuits hunt polar bears with .223's.
 
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