In the 50 or so 175 smk's I measured were within 0-1.5 thou most +/- 0.5 thou. That's pretty good, probably more so operator error on measuring. I realized I could be doing different things to shrink group size rather than weighing and measuring bullets. The test I did on bullets weighing within 0.3 gr had little if no effect on group size. I way rather dry fire for as long as it takes to sort 500 bullets, as that would give me greater return on investment.
How much is too much neck tension? Range update!
- Thread starter MuthaFunk
- Start date
A very good point! I think for some the pursuit of perfect ammo is simply to eliminate any doubt that the ammo is working against you more so than actually shooting better groups. It's knowing that the flaws seen on the target are none other than your own.
So I got to the range today with my hotter loads and I'm happy to report there was an improvement.
Those are by far the best 200M targets I've shot with this gun. Much better than the milsurp ammo it seems to do so well with at 100M.
My Chrony numbers got much better too. Still not great but better...
I was getting some pressure signs with the Varget load so I may take that back a bit. After that I may be able to proceed with playing with seating depth next. Is that even worth my time and bullets? Am I likely to see an improvement with a Mosin? I recognize its not a true target rifle.
Those are by far the best 200M targets I've shot with this gun. Much better than the milsurp ammo it seems to do so well with at 100M.
My Chrony numbers got much better too. Still not great but better...
I was getting some pressure signs with the Varget load so I may take that back a bit. After that I may be able to proceed with playing with seating depth next. Is that even worth my time and bullets? Am I likely to see an improvement with a Mosin? I recognize its not a true target rifle.
A couple things you mentioned about your ladder test were dropping velocities and point of impact being lower with a higher charge or velocity...you said this was making you doubt your chrony.
First, I've shot over a chrony for years and only changed a few months ago. The problems I've experience coincide with other reviews, namely err readings and erratic velocities due to lighting or low battery...like 2754, 2767, 3290, 2756 That stuff sticks way out. The other problem with chrony is people who double check with superior equipment or methods report the "true" velocity can be 100fps different. In my experience, with a fresh battery and diffusers in place you will get consistent readings that give a good indication of your load's performance...ie exactly what you are after es&sd.
About velocity dropping while doing ladder tests...it happens often when I use book start loads between 10&15% below max until about 5-7% below max... from 5% below to max they tend to be the most linear until around max when recoil goes up but velocity levels or drops(not always true, but mostly from my experience).
About a lower impact at higher charge/chrony reading...this is not chrony error it's physics(first explained to me by my brother in law). Recoil begins at primer ignition as does the bullet's journey down the barrel. Most rifles have muzzle rise during recoil so a slower load allows the barrel to rise more before the bullet exits the muzzle. A higher velocity load allows the bullet to leave at an earlier(lower muzzle) point in the recoil cycle. I have noticed during a ladder test with charge increments of 0.5gr that a higher charge with a big increase in velocity results in a lower impact. So don't second guess your chrony because of a change in poi.
I have missed steps in reloading as well as made assumptions. Please post a detailed step by step, there might be something one of the guys can spot in your process that could make all the difference.
Do you weigh your brass? I'm not talking about sorting to groups of 0.1grs...I tried that(not really, more like sorted to 1gr). But I did find some that were way out like 5grs. If you have a piece per group it could open up the group.
The last point made me think, would you be able to post your velocities for a given string? It might be helpful to know if there's 1 in 5 that's way off or if they're just all over the map. Ie. Are you #s like 2670,2689, 2656, 2693, 2661......or are they 2705, 2701, 2711, 2640, 2709.
Lastly you mentioned switching primers as an option, that may be worth a try. More than a few people have had issues with Win primers lately. I dont know anything about moisin firing pins but you may get more consistent results with a harder primer like a CCI(I'm not a primer expert so someone please correct if this is wrong).
Good luck and keep trying, posting results, and asking questions...its more fun when we work together as a team. I would have given up and sold off a good rifle if it wasn't for the support of a reloading forum.
Willy
First, I've shot over a chrony for years and only changed a few months ago. The problems I've experience coincide with other reviews, namely err readings and erratic velocities due to lighting or low battery...like 2754, 2767, 3290, 2756 That stuff sticks way out. The other problem with chrony is people who double check with superior equipment or methods report the "true" velocity can be 100fps different. In my experience, with a fresh battery and diffusers in place you will get consistent readings that give a good indication of your load's performance...ie exactly what you are after es&sd.
About velocity dropping while doing ladder tests...it happens often when I use book start loads between 10&15% below max until about 5-7% below max... from 5% below to max they tend to be the most linear until around max when recoil goes up but velocity levels or drops(not always true, but mostly from my experience).
About a lower impact at higher charge/chrony reading...this is not chrony error it's physics(first explained to me by my brother in law). Recoil begins at primer ignition as does the bullet's journey down the barrel. Most rifles have muzzle rise during recoil so a slower load allows the barrel to rise more before the bullet exits the muzzle. A higher velocity load allows the bullet to leave at an earlier(lower muzzle) point in the recoil cycle. I have noticed during a ladder test with charge increments of 0.5gr that a higher charge with a big increase in velocity results in a lower impact. So don't second guess your chrony because of a change in poi.
I have missed steps in reloading as well as made assumptions. Please post a detailed step by step, there might be something one of the guys can spot in your process that could make all the difference.
Do you weigh your brass? I'm not talking about sorting to groups of 0.1grs...I tried that(not really, more like sorted to 1gr). But I did find some that were way out like 5grs. If you have a piece per group it could open up the group.
The last point made me think, would you be able to post your velocities for a given string? It might be helpful to know if there's 1 in 5 that's way off or if they're just all over the map. Ie. Are you #s like 2670,2689, 2656, 2693, 2661......or are they 2705, 2701, 2711, 2640, 2709.
Lastly you mentioned switching primers as an option, that may be worth a try. More than a few people have had issues with Win primers lately. I dont know anything about moisin firing pins but you may get more consistent results with a harder primer like a CCI(I'm not a primer expert so someone please correct if this is wrong).
Good luck and keep trying, posting results, and asking questions...its more fun when we work together as a team. I would have given up and sold off a good rifle if it wasn't for the support of a reloading forum.
Willy
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Sorry, new question....
Why did you shorten the COAL when you tried h4895? If you're using the same bullet then there's no reason to adjust the jump to the lands when working up with a different powder. Also I posted about weighing brass to cull the extremes, but looking at the pics I'm also wondering what brass you're using for your reloads?
Nice shooting by the way. Also from the last few months I could post pics of my friends load development for a Tikka 7-08 where his group size es and sd with Varget are all similar to the results you're getting so no it's probably not the rifle... I did test a load for him Sunday with h4350 that did work though 4 shots in .8 and a called flyer for 5 into 1.2" with an es of 30fps which is all to say you are on the right track and sometimes you just have to try a different powder...or bullet(try a flat base ;-) )
Willy
Why did you shorten the COAL when you tried h4895? If you're using the same bullet then there's no reason to adjust the jump to the lands when working up with a different powder. Also I posted about weighing brass to cull the extremes, but looking at the pics I'm also wondering what brass you're using for your reloads?
Nice shooting by the way. Also from the last few months I could post pics of my friends load development for a Tikka 7-08 where his group size es and sd with Varget are all similar to the results you're getting so no it's probably not the rifle... I did test a load for him Sunday with h4350 that did work though 4 shots in .8 and a called flyer for 5 into 1.2" with an es of 30fps which is all to say you are on the right track and sometimes you just have to try a different powder...or bullet(try a flat base ;-) )
Willy
Thanks for the reply Willy!
The reason for the difference in COAL is due to a suggestion in this thread that perhaps being seated just off the lands is causing some disruption if my seating isn't exactly on. I don't have a comparator to double check. I took the load I shot the most and made it longer right into the lands to see if that changed anything. For the other powder I used my standard COAL. The difference this time was both were at the high end of the pressure curve. They both shot very similar and with similar numbers so I'm thinking my COAL wasn't causing the varied velocities I was seeing.
It's good to know about your friends Tikka. I'm sort of set up for this caliber with lots of milsurp ammo that shoots great in it and plenty of hand load components. I wanted to test the limits of what this caliber can do before I got into another gun and caliber.
My Chrony readings were sort of all over the map. Evenly spread I'd say. I didn't see any singular numbers that was causing my ES and SD to spread. I'm not too concerned with exact accuracy of my Chrony but more so use it for ES and SD. I seem to get pretty reliable readings out of it if I do my part of aligning my rifle properly and use the diffusers when required.
I haven't weighed my brass. I mostly use PPU and S&B in sorted lots of 20 depending on number of firings and annealing. I just recently found some Lapua in 7.62X54r and ordered 100 pcs. Hopefully that will help get these numbers down further.
I have been much more detailed with my brass for this last outing. I grouped them based on size as close as I could. If they were long enough I trimmed them. A lot of the PPU brass to too short to even trim even after a couple of firings so they got sorted together.
A very interesting development in this last outing was I ran a whole bunch of home cast lead bullet loads as well. You know what, they chrony'd very good!!! ES of 15 fps! They shot pretty good too but not as good as the high powered stuff. This has led me to believe my Chrony and setup is fine. I just need to get my Jacketed load numbers down and my groups will likely shrink.
Thanks again for the suggestions! I appreciate all the help from everyone. It's getting better.
