how to authenticate

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old cougar

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I have come into possesion of what I think might be a W.W. Greener Muzzleloader double barrel shotgun. Does anyone know what proofs to look for to authenticate. I know many fakes were made but believe this came from England with my Grandfather.


Thanks for any help I can get,

old cougar
 
English proofs aren't likely going to be of much help. Spuriously named English guns could easily have the same proofs as a genuine Greener. Greener's guns are well marked, of obvious quality.
It was not unusual for Belgian guns to be given the names of famous makers. Belgian proofs would be a give away.
 
thanks for the info. Found the proof is circa 1811-1892, proof house is Liege(but says its a British Proof Mark) black powder proof for rifles. So still am not sure if it is a Greener or not. Can not seem to find out what the marks for a Greener are without sending pics to England and I am afraid to clean it too much as it could be harmful.
 
As a general rule, caution is the best policy when cleaning/restorating an antique. Could you post photos on this site? There are some very knowledgable folks here.
 
You need to post some photos. As a start, does it actually say (exactly) "W.W.Greener" on the gun? The genuine guns were always marked that way. Remember of course there was also a W.Greener, his father who started the family business who was quite an innovator himself.

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old cougar said:
thanks for the info. Found the proof is circa 1811-1892, proof house is Liege(but says its a British Proof Mark) black powder proof for rifles. So still am not sure if it is a Greener or not. Can not seem to find out what the marks for a Greener are without sending pics to England and I am afraid to clean it too much as it could be harmful.
Click to expand...

I am puzzled by what you mean in your comments about proof marks; a belgian made gun would have ELG in an oval on the barrel while the british gun would have a crown over crossed maces (Birmingham proof). Also almost all true WW Greener guns should have an elephant stamped on the bottom of the barrel (trademark) and without the book in front of me, that mark goes back to the 1870s. Further are you sure the gun is percussion; WW may have made a few muzzle loaders in his first days but very quickly changed to cartridge guns. His father W Greener was adamant about the superiority of muzzle loaders.

cheers mooncoon
 
Elephants stamped over the "trademark" and also one on the water table. Thanks, didn't know that.

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I hope these photos help you in your ID.
 
With a serial number in the 60K range, I am guessing that the gun was made in the 1920s or 30s. My Graham Greener book is out on loan right now or I could give you a date. It is an anson and dealy action but I could not tell you the model offhand. My Greeners range from 19K to 33K and range from 1879 to I think the late 90s.

cheers mooncoon
 
I was worried this would happen. Remember I'm not the one who started the thread ;)

Its a Facile Princips action dated to 1913 by another expert. (I'd welcome a PM to follow up if you have conflicting data on the biuld date by serial number)
 
My date is a guess in the absence of the book. The fascile princips model (means easily the best) does not have those cocking levers protruding through the front of the hinge area on the frame (which was A&D's patent). The fascile princips has the cocking levers inside the water table and is significant because it was the subject of a length patent fight between Greener and Westley Richards. Greener eventually won on the basis that his gun did not require the forend as an integral part of cocking the gun. The A&D cocking levers engage notches in the forend iron. Greener made A&D action guns and presumably paid a patent royalty to Westley Richards to do so.

cheers mooncoon
 
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