How to lighten up a rifle?

alberta tactical rifle said:
I think most gunsmiths that preach this BS either don't have a milling machine or simply can't do the job
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Well this shop has PLENTY of machine equipment, over 1/4 million dollars worth to be specific, and increasing all the time, it comes in handy while MAKING actions, rings and rails and muzzle brakes ALL of which is produced here in house. Anyone who has been to my shop can attest to this.

anyone who believes this crap about fluting and stresses has never made real chips in a real machine shop.
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If you would care to put your money where your mouth is, I will happily send you the chips and tailings from this weeks machine work, if YOU pay the freight and back up your insults with FACT. I have an advertised location that folks can come to, and see. I don't hurl insults from behind a shield of anonimity that the internet affords and you hide behind. I have been in the gun making business for over 20 years, are you even in the business?? , and what REAL world experience do you bring to the forum???:evil:

I am NOT saying it CAN'T be done, but there is a pretty good chance unless the smith you choose has considerable experience at this, the end result will not necessarily be good.
I have LOTS of barrels here that someone else has fluted , then when the rifles accuracy dropped off after the fluting, was forced to rebarrel the gun.
In most instances real precision rifles shoot better WITHOUT the fluted barrels, more machining typically creates more stress in the steel, as a machinist you should be aware of this FACT, hence my statements.
Ask some of the better barrel makers what they think, about fluting AFTER the fact, and ask yourself how many bench rest shooters , that actually win, use fluted barrels??

We routinely thread OD's on pieces with .002 tolerances on the bore....no change..and the amount of material removed from a barrel is proportionally less than we are doing..
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Threading the OD of a chunk of pipe is not quite the same as a longitudinal cut along the length of a barrel, Have at it, use a REAL ACCURATE and expensive piece to experiment on, and let us all know how well it turns out. :mrgreen:
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We've got a live one here guys :lol: ......stand back.... :shock:

I'll get back with a reply later tonite when I have more time to sort through the post and pick out what's relevant and what's "blowing off steam" :?
 
how to lighten up rifle

New type fluting by Hart rifles gun weighs 6.7lbs 24"barrel stock is mcmillan.
I have a Rem Model 7, 18.5 barrel in 308 Win I removed wood stock and bought a High Tech Specialties stock bedded stock net gain on weight reduction 14oz, changed mounts to alunimum from steel Leupold rings and solid base, just finnished having stock painted and will weigh and get back to you with net differance. sorry can;t upload photo don't know how?
 
................I don't know a thing about gunsmithing or the first thing about machining but i would have to go with a journeyman certified machinist rather than a gunsmith whose trade is only partially about machining.

....................my father was a heavy equipment maintanance supervisor with machinists under him and he always reiterated, a gunsmith couldn't hold a candle to a true industrial machinist. A trained journeyman certified machinist can do anything a gunsmith can but not vice versa. A machinist is also educated in what can and will blow himself up in regards to tolerances, metalurgy and stress factors.


................this not intended as a flame as i have the upmost respect for you gunsmiths!!! :D
 
OK...first off...I'll start this out with a couple things.....I've spoken with our friend Rick from ATR at a couple a gunshows in Edmonton over the last couple years although he wouldn't remember, I was just another gunshow nut passing past his table, and I'll say his work and expertise are well known and respected. He was kind enough to go over the fine points of his 50 action as well as some of his custom barreled and stocked Sako's, he prefers them over Rem 700's.....I won't hold that against him :lol:....but those Sako triggers.. :twisted: .... :wink:

After pondering his emphatic response to a seemingly harmless post most of the afternoon, I came to realize two things....first off, I pulled a quote out of his post and responded to it, although the response was not directed at him, or ATR directly. He could not have known this. My mistake and I apologize. I have heard and read this same general statement so many times, both on CGN, a few other forums as well as in print and various other websites etc. He just happened to be the guy that wrote this particular post. The jist of the statement being that "if you flute an exisiting factory or custom barrel after it has been chambered and installed, it will never shoot as well as it did before"...or something along those lines....

Well, I just have a theory that this not written in stone, OK,..somewhere between "not written in stone"...and "total BS".....I replied to the original post about lightening a factory stainless Rem 700 in 7mm Rem Mag....I just refuse to believe that fluting this barrel will cause it to shoot like a full choke, which is most of what I read, both in Rick's post and elsewhere leads one to believe.

Now, Rick went on about BR rifles and whatnot......totally a "non-issue" in the context of this "discussion".....we are talking about the accuracy of factory barrels, before and after fluting. I am not "hurling insults from behind the anonymity of the internet" or other such garbage. Most of the local CGN'ers know where to find me, and quite a few have been in the shop to see me. And, No, I'm not in the business of building rifles, thank God for that, I have to eat and pay the mortgage 8) although I have to blow my horn when given the chance and I've twisted together a few decent rifles (both futed and unfluted :D )....a handful of CGN'ers who have them can attest to that. But this is not a rifle building contest.

therefore, I've decided to put my theory to the test....

So far I have picked out at least one guinea pig from my own "accumulation" of sporting rifles, a Rem 700( sorry Rick, no Sakos :wink: ) BDL in 300 Win Mag, this particular rifle has been with me for a while. The action is nickel-plated and the barrel is a stainless factory take-off that I got from a CGN member a couple years ago. It's in an HS sporter stock, again, from a CGN member about three years ago.
It's always shot around an inch for three with a 3-9Leo. I plan to tear it apart and flute the barrel after I do some accurracy testing, say 10 groups of three shots at 100M and average them. Then I'll flute it and redo the test. I may pick another one to do also. I have a 700 action with a 40X barrel in 223 that could use a weight-watchers program too...it may have to join the action.

I may have to get my friend "cccan" to help in the trigger pulling chores...he has way too much time on his hands.... :lol:


one more thing.....Rob AKA harv3589...if you want your 7 Mag stainless barrel fluted, give me a call. If it doesn't shoot afterwards, I'll put on a new barrel for you...no BS....then we can make it into a 300 Win Mag while we're at it :shock:


I have to go get some sleep.....I have to "thread a chunk of pipe" in the morning :mrgreen:
 
So then as a trained gunsmith, with a Journeyman Machinist AND Interprovincial Journeyman Welder tickets on the wall, maybe I do know something afterall.

94 , no flame taken, I agree with you for the most part, many gunsmiths, including myself received basic machinists training at school, certainly enough for basic firearms repair. But it is only a 2 year course and must cover a great many aspects of firearms repair, from stockmaking,finishing, blueing ,operational diagnosis , firearms design, and history, etc. Most gunsmiths , at least the 1s I know, are extremely knowledgeable on firearms related machine work, heat treating, and most importantly what works and what is dangerous in the firearms field, some are more adventuresome than others.
Gunmaking is alot more involved than just machinework although there is an awful lot of machinework involved, most machinists get the plans for what they make, but for the most part the engineering and metalurgical work is already done in the office, by others with that particular expertise. So the machinist machines the part and then someone else looks after heat treat, tempering, stress relieving etc.
I spent several years in this situation, bored out of my mind, but learning better machine work skills.
I know a great many machinists, some are far greater craftsmen that I ever will be, but they are not educated on the quirks that firearms machineing can have, or what does and does not work with guns, especially with heattreated parts, and things like the instant stress that occurs inside a firearm.
Many of the firearms I repair are results of a machinist or tool and die maker, thinking the same thing, gunsmithing is simple machinework, they are different trades.
The automotive trade is very similar, what an auto mechanic knows is similar to what a HD mechanic knows, but also totally different in many areas of expertise.

Rembo does that mean you do not want me to ship my chips to you????? :mrgreen:
 
alberta tactical rifle said:
Rembo does that mean you do not want me to ship my chips to you????? :mrgreen:
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Well,...I don't really need any extra chips......besides, they would just get lost in the mass exodus of chips out of the shop...last month's receipt from General Scrap was over 13,000 lbs :shock: ...now that's a lot of beer money.....that just gave me an idea...if you ship them up at your expense, I'll toss them in the bin and collect the cash from General and you can come by for a beer or two :lol: don't forget to bring a barrel to flute... :lol:
 
Rembo Apology accepted, I was a bit touchy as it seemed to me to be a direct shot. And have had several attacks lately. I get a little testy this time of year, something about the 20 hour days 7 days a week, just to keep up with the broken guns.
You apparently did not notice my Sakos at the shows ,all have Canjars installed, but am glad you did see I CAN make a gun.
I prefer tha Sakos as I believe them to be more of a machinists art than the Remington, which is a machined pipe. I know the Remingtons can shoot just as well, I just like high quality machinework, like the OLD Sakos had.

You may have luck with your project, I see far too many barrels buggered up by fluting after the fact, so do not do it, even on my cnc mill. I have spoken at length on this with Dan Lilja and Ron Smith, both barrel makers I trust the judgement of, both say it is hit and miss as to whether the used barrel will shoot as well as before fluting. The ratio of barrels that shoot well even in new 1s is lower than non fluted according to Dan, now by how much??? He did not say.
Good Luck and let us know how it goes. :mrgreen:
 
All this Technology and I still go to the bother of carrying around my 10lb Enfield. Wally, when will you get with the Times? :lol:
 
harv3589 said:
Well I already goto the gym 4-5x's a week so thats not the issue....hey ATR what kind of stock do you recommend?
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Im curious what the problem is? You cant hold the gun up? You cant carry the gun it hurts your shoulder? What?
 
SuperCub said:
I have a 700 ADL here in .264 Mag. 26" SS Gaillard magnum contour bbl, Bushnell 3200 3x9 in a McMillan fiberglass stock.
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that sir, is one awesome rifle... :shock: :eek: I love it :twisted:
 
there's alot of aftermarket parts to make your m700 lighter

first one (and most important/cost effective) is the stock. Most walnut & tupperware weigh 35-40 ounces. laminates can go a bit more. If you replace with a lightweight fiberglass stock, you'll be at 20-24 ounches finished.

second is the magazine. Now seeing how your 7mm is a DM model, I'm not sure if its even possible to convert it to ADL blind magazine... :? I'm pretty sure the feed rails are different on DM models...

third is the scope/mounts. A Leupold VX-II 3-9x33mm Ultralight weights a mere 8.8 ounces. Talley lightweight one piece mounts (base/ring) are around 3 ounces. Compare that to a Bushnell Elite 3200 3-9x40mm {16 ounces} and Leupold ring/bases {5 ounces}. You would save over a half pound right there...

fourth is action mods. Gre-Tan makes a lightweight bolt shroud and firing pin spring kit that will drop a few ounces. Bolt handles can be milled out, and the bolt body can be fluted. Ounces lead to pounds remember :D

fifth is the barrel. as stated, fluting the barrel has the potential to effect accuracy. I'm interested to see Rembo's results from testing a rifle before and after fluting... :D You could chop the tube to 23" and still not notice any real world velocity loss.

sixth would be extras...like not having a Uncle Mikes 9 round shell carrier on the stock of your rifle, putting a lightweight sling on it compared to a wide leather one, etc. Scope lens covers are still a must though, IMO, even if they do add an ounce or two.


if you do all these mods, you should in theory have a rifle that weighs around 6.5 lbs scoped.
 
B&C are good, the gunsmith I took mine to , made the forend more rigid, and piller bedded the tang.
7MAG 24 '' is a good length. And an 11 oz scope would be the way to go.It will seem even light with the lower center of gravity . My 2 cents.
Frank
 
harv3589 said:
The McMillian stock is on the way...just waiting for it now and its taking forever.
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Rob - they do make very nice stocks. which model did you go - edge hunter?
 
No I went with the Remington Mountain style with the Edge Technolgy, so it should be very light still. Painted an olive green with black spider webbing.
 
I was in the same postiton as you. I wanted to build a light weight hunting rifle to add to my collection. I had a 25-06 mountain rifle which still wasn't light enough. I ended up trading that and had a stainless mountain rifle pieced together without a stock for a value of about $700. I then bought a Bansner sheep hunter LA drop floor unfinished blank and your looking at approx $400 for that and then you have to finish it which only takes time and not much money maybe another $100. So far we are at $1200 and it weights about 6 lbs.

A Remington Titanium brand new is $1249 and is 1/2 pound lighter. It just so happens that one came up for sale used so I bought it too.
Now I look at the two rifle and see that the titanuim is an excellent value and definitly an economical way to go, you just can't build them for the price.

Brambles
 
Brambles, I've got the High techs on now for $265 for what is in stock. The next batch will be closer to the $300 mark but I'll try to keep the price down...as much as possible...
 
Brambles said:
Now I look at the two rifle and see that the titanuim is an excellent value and definitly an economical way to go, you just can't build them for the price. Brambles
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It might be cheaper but I think one built to what you want is a better way to go, even if it costs alittle more in the end.

Just starting on another project, Remington 700 stainless in a 7mm-08.
 
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