How would accuracy change if a brass is fired for several times??

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Hi, I googled this issue but couldn't get any results, so I think CGNers are knowledgeable to help me out.

So the question is, how would accuracy be effected if a brass is used for several time?

more specifically, I have 20rds of 308win FC brass that I use for reloading, I noticed that the first time and second time and third time I reloaded them, the result was pretty good, but after I used them for the 5th, 6th time and on, I noticed the downhill of their performance, as the grouping got bigger, I tossed them, and I found another box of once-fired brass, also FC, and I reloaded them, it was the second time they were fired, and the result turned out pretty good.

So I'm wondering if the amount of time a brass is fired would determine its performance?

thanks
 
Handloader Magazine did some testing a few years ago on the various brands of Brass, and they determined that Federal brass is inferior to the other brands.
I personally only use it whenever I can't find better brass, and even then, only reload it a few times then throw it away.
I've seen loose primer pockets in Federal brass after only a couple of reloads for no apparent reason.
 
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Depending how hot you reloaded them and your reloading tools/technique first thing would probably be work hardening of brass giving you variable neck tension on bullet. If you are happy with primer pockets and there is no signs of case-head separation you may want to anneal you brass. That should extend life of your cases and hopefully return accuracy.
 
I was going to type pretty much he axact same thing ^^^^. Neck tension and case lengthening. Anneal and trim. Resize the bare minimum you can to save from overworking the brass and case head separation. Check for the the latter as well.
 
Trimming and annealing are the secret to it all. I have some old Dominion brass that has had over 60 reloadings.

I also don't interchange cases between rifles or pistols.

Also, don't full length resize. Neck size only.

If you are loading for a semi auto, partial shoulder and body resizing will likely be necessary for reliable feeding.

Always check the length of your cartridge case before reloading. When the case length exceeds the length of the chamber all sorts of nasty things happen, including inconsistent pressures which will naturally reduce accuracy.
 
^^^^^Thanks for the replies everyone!! Now I think I should anneal and neck size only...

For annealing, I watched some YouTube instructions and learned a method that I put a brass in a cordless drill and lit up a propane torch and heat the neck&shoulder area until it turns blue, and then I drop the brass into cold water... Anything that I missed?

Also I bought some once fired Norma brass, still on its way to my home but I'm already excited...
It's fired in a different rifle, so when it arrives I'm gonna FL resize them back to factory specs, and after I fire them, they should fit to my rifles chamber and then I only neck size them...

Going on my road to precision and there's always something new to learn...
 
Accuracy is affected to some degree by everything that can be measured. Ammunition is made within tolerances, and you will seldom find two cartridges that are truly identical, although we strive to keep our tolerances to an acceptable minimum. There's an interesting experiment that is described in the A-Square manual. Two groups of new .30/06 cases were each repeatedly charged and fired 5 times with the same load (180 gr Nosler BT, CCI-200 primer, 51.0 grs R-15 in Remington brass) one case was annealed after each firing the other was not. The annealed brass produced very uniform velocity, but the non-annealed brass began to show higher velocities as the neck work hardened causing the pressure that was necessary to release the bullet to increase. The velocity spread of the annealed brass went from a low average of 2681 to a high of 2710, an extreme spread of 29 fps. The non-annealed brass showed a velocity spread from a low average of 2673 to a high of 2764, an extreme spread of 91 fps. Now a difference of even 91 fps at a 100 yards will have a minimum effect on group size, but it is the accumulation of everything measurable that results in the final outcome. One wonders what the effect might be after a cartridge case had been reloaded 20 times without annealing.
 
You should document your brass dimensions after the first firm-formed round... in the future you should trim and turn back to those specs... neck size only as much as possible... and use more than 20 brass... I have at least 100 brass for every cartridge that I load for... but for most I have 200-300... for my primary cartridges (.22 KH, .223, .243, .308, .44 RM) I have several hundred to several thousand cases. The more you have the fewer you times you will load each case... it also doesn't hurt to have a stockpile.
 
Lots of factors. Annealing sticks out. I find accuracy starts to degrade after the 4th or so firing if I don't anneal.

You may also have donuts... have had those in 308 with soft brass (FC is soft). If you're using SS media, you may have burrs in the case mouths. Inserting a bullet into the fired cases will allow you to detect either of these. You should not feel any resistance, the bullet should drop right into the case.
 
My pet load's average grouping at 100yards is 0.5~0.7inch, sometimes <0.5", best grouping is 0.17MOA,
but now it opens up to 0.9~1inch.
I wonder maybe I used those brass for so long and they start to get tired. Or maybe the hot weather makes my barrel so easy to get over heated.

my pet load is:
Caliber: 308win
Bullet: 30cal 168gr SMK BTHP
Brass: PPU/FC brass trimmed to 2.006"
Powder: 44gr of Win748
Primer: CCI200LR
OAL:2.805"

My rifle is a Accuracy International AE mk3, barrel length is 20" and twist rate is 1:12.
 
I wonder when should I anneal my brass? Of course I don't have to do it like every time, maybe after 3-4 reloading.
But when should I anneal them? Before I deprime and FL resize them, or after? Do I anneal first then trim them? Or do I trim them first then anneal them?

Thanks for all of your helps:)
 
Neck sizing only depends on what rifle you're shooting. Bolt actions only. No neck sizing only for a semi-autos, levers or pump actions. They all require FL sizing every time.
You have to trim and anneal sooner or later. All brass, regardless of brand or the equipment used will stretch and get work hardened over time. The stretching happens most on the first few firings. Work hardening takes longer.
Case length is critical for a semi and its cousins, so you need to check lengths every time, but only trim, chamfer and deburr as required.
Annealing is a bit different. It gets done when you get one cracked case neck/mouth. You pitch the cracked one and anneal the rest. You only need to put the cases in a pan(a foil roasting pan works well.) of tap water up to the shoulders then heat 'em with a regular propane torch(about $15 in Crappy Tire) until the brass changes colour and tip 'em over. Not red or blue hot. Either is far too hot. No high priced machines, drills or anything else is needed.
Federal brass is well known for being softer than other brands. It just doesn't last as long. However, it's usually the primer pockets that get out of round and/or oversized. Five or 6 reloads is pretty good for Federal. Only have a bit of it myself. Always liked the boxes Federal uses/used.
You might find buying a bag of new brass a good idea. Instead of once fired. Shooter's Choice in Waterloo carries loads of it.
 
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My pet load's average grouping at 100yards is 0.5~0.7inch, sometimes <0.5", best grouping is 0.17MOA,
but now it opens up to 0.9~1inch.
I wonder maybe I used those brass for so long and they start to get tired. Or maybe the hot weather makes my barrel so easy to get over heated.

my pet load is:
Caliber: 308win
Bullet: 30cal 168gr SMK BTHP
Brass: PPU/FC brass trimmed to 2.006"
Powder: 44gr of Win748
Primer: CCI200LR
OAL:2.805"

My rifle is a Accuracy International AE mk3, barrel length is 20" and twist rate is 1:12.
Click to expand...

Consider retuning your powder charge to get back accuracy.... Win 748 is not temp stable. Also, consider moving to a match primer or at least verify primers are not a moving target.

If you want the very best and most consistent accuracy, you treat your brass to a full review every loading. With the right set up, annealing every firing is a great idea and ensures brass is consistent. Trim, outside neck turn, proper sizing are all part of ongoing brass prep.

Brass work hardens each firing and brass flow ensures the neck thickness now varies. There simply is no way to control neck tension with varying necks from case to case.

It is more work but if you want the itty bitty groups on an ongoing predicatable basis, it is effort well spent.

I clean my cases after they are fired, then anneal, then body size, then clean, then prep necks, then size necks, then add primer powder and bullet. The further you go and the higher the accuracy demanded, the more this shows up on target.

Jerry

PS - you most certainly can neck size for semi autos, pumps and levers. You just have to know how to control the body sizing to ensure feeding is 100%
 
sunray said:
Neck sizing only depends on what rifle you're shooting. Bolt actions only. No neck sizing only for a semi-autos, levers or pump actions. They all require FL sizing every time.
You have to trim and anneal sooner or later. All brass, regardless of brand or the equipment used will stretch and get work hardened over time. The stretching happens most on the first few firings. Work hardening takes longer.
Case length is critical for a semi and its cousins, so you need to check lengths every time, but only trim, chamfer and deburr as required.
Annealing is a bit different. It gets done when you get one cracked case neck/mouth. You pitch the cracked one and anneal the rest. You only need to put the cases in a pan(a foil roasting pan works well.) of tap water up to the shoulders then heat 'em with a regular propane torch(about $15 in Crappy Tire) until the brass changes colour and tip 'em over. Not red or blue hot. Either is far too hot. No high priced machines, drills or anything else is needed.
Federal brass is well known for being softer than other brands. It just doesn't last as long. However, it's usually the primer pockets that get out of round and/or oversized. Five or 6 reloads is pretty good for Federal. Only have a bit of it myself. Always liked the boxes Federal uses/used.
You might find buying a bag of new brass a good idea. Instead of once fired. Shooter's Choice in Waterloo carries loads of it.
Click to expand...

Uh-oh... I listened to some guy on YouTube and annealed my brass blue-hot... Are they still safe to fire?
 
Mystic Precision said:
Consider retuning your powder charge to get back accuracy.... Win 748 is not temp stable. Also, consider moving to a match primer or at least verify primers are not a moving target.

If you want the very best and most consistent accuracy, you treat your brass to a full review every loading. With the right set up, annealing every firing is a great idea and ensures brass is consistent. Trim, outside neck turn, proper sizing are all part of ongoing brass prep.

Brass work hardens each firing and brass flow ensures the neck thickness now varies. There simply is no way to control neck tension with varying necks from case to case.

It is more work but if you want the itty bitty groups on an ongoing predicatable basis, it is effort well spent.

I clean my cases after they are fired, then anneal, then body size, then clean, then prep necks, then size necks, then add primer powder and bullet. The further you go and the higher the accuracy demanded, the more this shows up on target.

Jerry

PS - you most certainly can neck size for semi autos, pumps and levers. You just have to know how to control the body sizing to ensure feeding is 100%
Click to expand...


Hi Jerry, I noticed that Win748 is not performing as good as in the winter time, I still have 2lbs of IMR4064, what is your review on this powder?
Also i bought 200Norma brass that is coming next week, it's the most expensive brass I have ever bought, and online everyone says it's good brass so I have faith in it, I figure when it arrives, I'm gonna put aside all my old brass, and use Norma brass only so that I could keep tracking them easily and organizely.
 
I don't think the drill method is worth the hassle. I turn the lights down low, just enough to see my water pail and my pile of casings. I just hold them between my thumb and finger, rolling it back and fourth with some writer twisting for maybe 2.5 seconds each (till you can just faintly see the darkest cherry glow) with the flame concentrated in the area between the shoulder and neck. I find this with quite uniform results.

I try to anneal and trim each loading. It sometimes I skip the annealing but I will do it on the next go-round.
 
I have enough brass now that I don't anneal very often, but I try to anneal after each third firing. If you wait till you see case neck cracking, you've already gone past the point of benefiting from a uniform pressure necessary to release the bullet. When I anneal I do so before full length resizing and the method I use is to hold the cartridge case near the head in my fingers and turn the case in the flame of a propane torch set very low. I no longer concern myself with the color of the case, I simply continue to hold the case neck and shoulder in the flame until I can no longer hold it, then I drop it into a sink full of cold water which most importantly prevents the head of the case from heating enough to soften, and also gives my fingers some relief. Perhaps some day I'll buy or build a proper annealing machine. The fellow who makes the Giraud Case Trimmer, also makes an annealing machine, but it doesn't look as though they will export it.
 
I don't recall Warren Page even mentioning annealing brass to record annual aggregates we mortals can only dream of. I am sure he did, but since he, and most of his peers reloaded the same cases repeatedly for the same match, I am sure they got fired multiple times between annealing. Of course, they did minimal neck sizing, using expander balls sized to a minimal, but consistent neck tension, but still, I don't think they were annealing brass between stages!
 
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