Hunter training shooting Exam

I dont like the "stick" approach .. prefer the carrot! If we want to see better marksmanship among hunters we need MORE ranges. LOTS of public ranges to provide the opportunity for practice. Seems that the recent trend has been to close/restrict them rather than open new ones. I think that will deal with many concerns about inadequate marksmanship among hunters ... and even assuming that we get every hunter to "marksman" status (whatever that might mean) then how many excellent shots find that "buck fever" is so intense that they cant make a clean shot at game anyway?? Sometimes a mediocre target shooter is blessed with great sight, hearing and reflex's and gets on the shot when its close enough to be a clean kill ... while the marksman engages so slowly that his target has achieved maximum velocity and taking evasive action making a clean shot much more problematic.
... so many variables that traditional shooting tests cant address.

Anyway -- I think the policies, procedures, rules and regulations employed by European Countries ... can stay in Europe where they are well suited. We really do not need anymore laws ... which end up only applying to the poor bastards anyway!
 
I would suggest that "better" initial training is required in most jurisdictions. We (North Americans) seem to be obsessed with finding the easiest way to do something, in the cheapest way possible.

Take Alberta's hunter training program: today you can sign up and do your course (and I believe your test) online without any extra information other than the bare minimum required to pass the test. No hands-on experience required whatsoever. IMO this is contributing to a high number of ignorant (meaning "not knowing", not idiotic) hunters in our midst.

Many moons ago EVERYONE had to sit in on a hunter education course that was often given during the evening for weeks. The people who taught it were (usually) experienced outdoorsmen who wanted new hunters to have the required knowledge to be successful, safe and ethical in the field.

Now Huter Ed is available online, can be completed in hours, and has no element of ethics at all; just legal / not legal. Is this really helping the future of hunting?

While Europe's history of class division, buerocratic regulation, and (often) self serving "education requirements" are NOT what we want, their initial high standard of practical hunter education is something we should at least be considering.

Having said that, I believe that the best hunter education is through mentorship. No online or classroom program can replace actual field experience with a knowledgable mentor.
 
However in Europe hunters do have influence and are listened to, since their credibility is much higher.
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If you would prefer living in Europe don't let us hold you back and watch the door doesn't hit you in the ass on the way out. We have far too much government intrusion in our lives now,we damn well don't need any more.
 
The biggest problem with it is the total lack of public ranges. Too much time and money involved with joining a club, if there is one within reasonable distance. In most places in Canada, such clubs and/or ranges do not exist.
That and the assorted Community Colleges(a hunter's licence is a two year CC course in Germany.) here don't want to run 'em, don't have the facillities and wouldn't be able to get qualified instructors.
And magnumitis. The magnum's excessive felt recoil keeps shooters from practicing.
 
About 20-25 years ago, in Quebec, (where all big game bagged must be registered with F&W) a study was performed on a few of the biggest Controlled Exploitation Zones and it was estimated that for every killed moose that was registered there was another wounded to die later, poached or simply left behind to rot. They studied the CEZs because the smaller areas with higher concentration of hunters made it easier to survey but the numbers apply province wide and it is believed they still apply today. With the official number of moose registered province wide in 2013 at 26155, they figure there was a minimum 56310 animals killed by hunting alone. Take what you want from that...but I still think there are too many idiots in the bush that don't have the skill to be taking 50yd shots let alone 300yd ones and it is time we wake up and figure out a way to prevent it!

As far as public ranges go...we have enough morons paying memberships fees that are "shooting up" the range as it is, not to mention they leave everything behind expecting the next guy to pick it up...make it free and it'll only be worse!

Just my $0.02!!
 
Pudelpointer, I did the hunter's ed online before I even got here. It was a joke, like the firearm safety course you do in buddie's garage over a beer and get 100%. One of the big differences in Europe is how the game is sold into the food chain. If it's shot up badly, the dealers won't take it. Shot placement was very conservative anywhere I hunted, which made humane kills a by product as much as good ethics. There's no reason that education should make hunting unavailable to the average guy. I have hunted/culled extensively for 20 yrs and I am more than happy to learn something new.
 
Take what you want from that...but I still think there are too many idiots in the bush that don't have the skill to be taking 50yd shots let alone 300yd ones and it is time we wake up and figure out a way to prevent it!
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Well it is easy to be frustrated -- and I think I understand your intent... BUT that last part "it is time we wake up and figure out a way to prevent it!"
Is pretty much what folks said when the we tightened down on restricted firearms and transportation rules and "authorized ranges" and the long gun registry (that we fought to rescind for so long) and the reason my PAL mentions "crossbows" on it etc etc etc ... PLEASE for GODS SAKES think carefully about what you are asking for -- and the BEST way to achieve your results! WE DO NOT NEED MORE REGULATIONS!!! I think Hunters/Sportsman can deal with this if necessary without a self righteous plea for more regs!!!

At least consider the folks in northern/remote areas that have a hell of time just getting their current "documents" to hunt, own and shoot firearms etc. All we need is more administrivia to make our lives fulfilling!!!


Incidentally we used to have a very fine public range north of Toronto that got shut down by self righteous do gooders that thought it was all too nasty for "proper" folk! . It was well run, well supervised by retired MNR and other keen shooters -- and I NEVER saw any evidence of slob shooters or people leaving the facilities in a mess! Irrelevant now as it is long gone!!
 
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AP said:
...Is pretty much what folks said when the we tightened down on restricted firearms and transportation rules and "authorized ranges" and the long gun registry (that we fought to rescind for so long) and the reason my PAL mentions "crossbows" on it etc etc etc ... PLEASE for GODS SAKES think carefully about what you are asking for -- and the BEST way to achieve your results! WE DO NOT NEED MORE REGULATIONS!!! I think Hunters/Sportsman can deal with this if necessary without a self righteous plea for more regs!!!
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The difference is that all the regs you mentioned were made up under bogus pretenses by politicians to try disarm the population whereas in this case we know for a fact there is a problem! How do you solve a problem without additional regs?
 
whereas in this case we know for a fact there is a problem! How do you solve a problem without additional regs?
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Oh dear!!!:bangHead::bangHead::bangHead::bangHead::bangHead:


in the mid '80's we couldnt find enough military recruits to fill the manning requirements allocated to Ontario and the Western Provinces. While allotted vacancies in the Maritimes filled up immediately. I suppose we could have dealt with the shortfall by introducing additional "regs" (some people would call it conscription) to fill the shortfall .. instead keen young men and women from the Maritimes who were desperate for employment were quietly given the bus fare to travel to Ontario and points west so that they could apply at those local recruiting centers. The result -- darn good personnel that trained hard!
 
AP said:
Oh dear!!!:bangHead::bangHead::bangHead::bangHead::bangHead:


in the mid '80's we couldnt find enough military recruits to fill the manning requirements allocated to Ontario and the Western Provinces. While allotted vacancies in the Maritimes filled up immediately. I suppose we could have dealt with the shortfall by introducing additional "regs" (some people would call it conscription) to fill the shortfall .. instead keen young men and women from the Maritimes who were desperate for employment were quietly given the bus fare to travel to Ontario and points west so that they could apply at those local recruiting centers. The result -- darn good personnel that trained hard!
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You are comparing apples to oranges. Open all the public ranges you want but until people change their attitudes about "modern" hunting, marksmenship ain't going to improve one bit.

"I don't need to practice because I have a rifle that's guarantied to shoot half MOA, a top of the line BDC scope and with this Wonder Mag cartridge it don't matter where it's hit...it's gonna drop like a sack of $h!+. If it don't it's because it was a clean miss!"

I've spent enough time helping out "new" shooters to have heard it all...and sadly you can't reason with most of these people because they researched the internet before making a purchase!

Either way we will have to agree to disagree about the regulations! Cheers!
 
i agree there are some dismal shooters that can't even manage to sight in never mind shoot decent groups but shooting tests. what happens if you live in a rural area. drive five hours to a range that is qualified to administer the test. we have far too many rules and regulations. talk about killing interest in hunting.
 
I totally agree with the OP.

I'd love to see marksmanship testing for hunting. Perhaps instead of mandatory make it so folks with proven skills are given discounts on tags and other perks such as limited entry hunts, etc.

Also I would love to try the hunting courses in Scandinavia and the UK.
 
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NShunter1254 said:
If you would prefer living in Europe don't let us hold you back and watch the door doesn't hit you in the ass on the way out. We have far too much government intrusion in our lives now,we damn well don't need any more.
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Actually the poster you are referring to makes sense...

"However in Europe hunters do have influence and are listened to, since their credibility is much higher."

Right now in Canada our Government sees (non native) hunting as nothing more then a seasonal recreation. It couldn't hurt to up the standards ourselves before they do.
 
I think the UK is much more conservative than the Europeans on shot placement because there is no driven big game hunting in the UK. I guided a few times for deer in the UK. We always walked in front of the shooter, who kept the rifle slung over his shoulder. When we saw a deer, we set up the sticks and the shooter stepped forward with his rifle. The head stalker always told us not to walk in front of the Europeans, unless you wanted to be deaf!
When I hear of guys shooting a cow elk instead of a bull, or shooting someone in the bush, it makes me wonder what their standard for shot placement and sight picture is.
 
If we impose via laws and regulations, more rules on the whole hunting population because of a few unethical individuals, this is much like the teacher punishing the entire class for the actions of one or two. Is that fair to our society on this side of the pond, as a whole? We just unshackled ourselves from the long gun registry and some of us wish for other draconian & expensive rules, based on a few instances of behaviour they do not like. I notice that few on the other side of the fence regarding this manner of mandatory everything, have offered that they volunteer at thier own local range to help educate others or just to keep the range doors open for paying members of a hunting/shooting club.

Edit: Note Chappy's tidbit of info. It's one thing to enforce hunter education on the tiny little countries of Europe. Now try that in our vast country with our limited rifle ranges that are quickly disappearing thanks to increasingly stricter government regulaltions and municipal by laws, pushed by an unsympathetic growing/non-shooting populace. Most normal thinking people are going to be receptive to change if the idea is seemingly originated out of thier on free will to 'improve themselves' whatever that may be. Other than the other approach; Enforced legislation imposed by persons who feel very comfortable in the jackbooted enforcer type role. And jackboots don't mix very well with most Canadians here.
 
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Stupid. Legislation will never replace personal ethics.

If you miss England so much there are daily flights from Calgary and other big cities. Feel free to board one.
 
Sounds perfectly acceptable in an area that loves the class system...have fun with that, a solution that works is get involved. As BUM said ethics are the core of the solution, get involved mentor new hunters, they then do the same and so on. It works for me and is immensely rewarding as well.

The only legislation we need is less legislation.
 
VLT79 said:
I've spent enough time helping out "new" shooters to have heard it all...and sadly you can't reason with most of these people because they researched the internet before making a purchase!
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I dont think we can judge the masses by the idiots who stick out in our mind.
There will always be some people you cant reason with .. but I have met a far greater number of new hunters who do want to learn how to shoot properly and are worried about hitting an animal properly and would love to I get some proper practice in - BUT in Ontario .. trying to get access to a shooting range is almost impossible and there are not a lot of shooting courses offered for hunters and the ones that are - for a lot of hunters its just out of their price range.

If they (our Government) didnt make it so hard (legal requirements/ financial liability etc) to build a shooting range ( WE need far more in Ontario because most shooting ranges/clubs are full and not accepting new members - and have 5 year waiting lists) and provided subsidized hunter marksman courses I believe there would be a lot of hunters - new and old who would take them. The new hunter you encounter in Alberta may not face the same challenges and there may be some different attitudes, but Id say the majority of new hunters I talk with certainly dont have a I know how to hunt and shoot 1000 yards because I watch Wild TV

Most hunters I know wouldnt mind taking a hunting refresher course once every 4 years - the way we had to take a course before getting a turkey license. - It was a day with a bunch of other hunters and we all came away with some new information or were reminded of some things we had forgotten.

Again subsidize the cost keeping it low so it doesnt feel like another money grab (after the $$ we pay for the licenses and permits) and it becomes a fun day for hunters to get to know one another in a region. Hunters would come out for a refresher course where it wasnt just sitting in a classroom all day; provide some shooting coaching, provide help for rifles not functioning properly, and a chance to try some other equipment.. Invite various manufacturers to bring their products and help with coaching or providing a loaner when someones rifle or scope isnt working properly. That could be a win win for suppliers - to get their product in front of hunters. then they can go back to their favourite gun store to purchase the new scope or rifle they tried out.

I know Im dreaming .... but .... Ive got a dream of a country where...
 
BigUglyMan said:
Stupid. Legislation will never replace personal ethics.

If you miss England so much there are daily flights from Calgary and other big cities. Feel free to board one.
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X2

It's a European idea, leave it there. Not to mention the impractical nature of any such program in a country much larger than European countries.
 
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