hunting calibers
- Thread starter Shnitzl
- Start date
ALBERTA BOY
Regular
- Location
- Edmonton, AB
I won't tell you what to buy.
I will tell you what NOT to buy.
Savage arms.
I have owned 6 of them and each and every one of them has had a serious factory defect.
Anything from defective trigger to receiver top machined/warped so badly that scope mounting required shimming to tons of brown bluing residue coating the gun and being practically non-removable. I guess they forgot the vibratory tumbling step in their cheap bluing process. Axis firing pin springs interlocking and causing bolt to close uncocked. Savage will install a 'fixed' spring of a different type...which does exactly the same thing. Most people would have stopped at one or two but these rifles get so much lip service from people with low standards that I thought I just had bad luck.
Go to any gun store and pick up the most expensive savage you can find. Should be about $2500. Look at the finish on that bolt face. Yep, the same as any cheap one. Total crap. How about that cast bolt handle! I hope I don't find out on a hunt that there's a void in there somewhere... Locking cams where only one of them has any bearing surface. Take apart the bolt, springs and ball bearings flying. Cheap. The stock extractor will either work well or not at all. No problem to fix, just ask on the savage shooters forum. Everyone knows that Bic makes a better spring for their extractor and you can get one from any of their pens if you have a problem from the factory...
Blued components on a stainless rifle? A true sign of quality...
At Shot show, the savage reps were bragging about how their assembly process is so automated that each rifle only takes 3 minutes of human work before being shipped out the door. They're built to a price point. That bragging point of theirs says it all.
They can be fairly accurate rifles but they are NOT quality rifles. Most specimens that I have handled cannot even be called 'not defective'.
People who like these rifles either have very low standards or simply don't know what to look for or what they are looking at.
There are a lot of good options. Savage and the like simply isn't one of them.
I will tell you what NOT to buy.
Savage arms.
I have owned 6 of them and each and every one of them has had a serious factory defect.
Anything from defective trigger to receiver top machined/warped so badly that scope mounting required shimming to tons of brown bluing residue coating the gun and being practically non-removable. I guess they forgot the vibratory tumbling step in their cheap bluing process. Axis firing pin springs interlocking and causing bolt to close uncocked. Savage will install a 'fixed' spring of a different type...which does exactly the same thing. Most people would have stopped at one or two but these rifles get so much lip service from people with low standards that I thought I just had bad luck.
Go to any gun store and pick up the most expensive savage you can find. Should be about $2500. Look at the finish on that bolt face. Yep, the same as any cheap one. Total crap. How about that cast bolt handle! I hope I don't find out on a hunt that there's a void in there somewhere... Locking cams where only one of them has any bearing surface. Take apart the bolt, springs and ball bearings flying. Cheap. The stock extractor will either work well or not at all. No problem to fix, just ask on the savage shooters forum. Everyone knows that Bic makes a better spring for their extractor and you can get one from any of their pens if you have a problem from the factory...
Blued components on a stainless rifle? A true sign of quality...
At Shot show, the savage reps were bragging about how their assembly process is so automated that each rifle only takes 3 minutes of human work before being shipped out the door. They're built to a price point. That bragging point of theirs says it all.
They can be fairly accurate rifles but they are NOT quality rifles. Most specimens that I have handled cannot even be called 'not defective'.
People who like these rifles either have very low standards or simply don't know what to look for or what they are looking at.
There are a lot of good options. Savage and the like simply isn't one of them.
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Cooler has nothing to do with it. It's about what a guy can pass down to his kids! Sure you can pass down a bunch of savage axis if that is what you can afford, but why not a nice M70 featherweight, or a 700 CDL. Are they crazy expensive, no, but I would rather hand my kid a featherweight when my time is up, than some plastic axis and tasco combo! Same goes for synthetic stocked rifles, to me they have no character! I would rather have a gun that shows a history of where I've been, than a pristine plastic stock! Anyway, that's just my opinion. When all I could afford was budget guns, that was what I had. When I could buy something nicer I did so, and cool had nothing to do with it!
Point taken.
Very well said.
A man with great taste in firearms!
- Location
- Somewhere on the Hudson Bay Coast
Wealth has advantages that should exploited. What was the point of working so hard and sacrificing so much to get there if you're going to drive a Honda Accord and shoot a Savage Axis; we can all do that. You owe it to yourself to enjoy the fruits of your labors. English double rifles, a modern version of a long range Sharps rifle, custom big game and varmint rifles should all be on your list, as should any collector grade arms that holds your interest, in addition to a brace of high grade double barreled smooth bores. Once you get all this stuff, make time to use it.
I hunted with a fellow in Africa who owns this custom shop M-70 in .375 H&H, if there is a more versatile hunting cartridge in the world, I don't know what it might be . . .
I hunted with a fellow in Africa who owns this custom shop M-70 in .375 H&H, if there is a more versatile hunting cartridge in the world, I don't know what it might be . . .
Mystic Precision
CGN Ultra frequent flyer
- Location
- Summerland, BC
Calibers for me:
223 - small stuff I don't eat.
7-08 - short barreled AXIS (cause I did want one)
30-06 - with muzzle brake for those longer shots on larger game. Ruger American - amazing what they are producing for dirt cheap. Hope to get this one shooting in the little bit to see what the accuracy is. Used to have a 7RM that fit this role but decided to go back to a classic given all the really cool 30cal bullets available now.
I put my money into my target rifles as these don't get beat up. For me, a hunting rifle is a tool so I prefer to have resiliant functional and accurate rifle that fits me and how I hunt. Fancy is obtainable but I just can't bear to take them into the field. Been there, put the dents in them.
YMMV.
Jerry
223 - small stuff I don't eat.
7-08 - short barreled AXIS (cause I did want one)
30-06 - with muzzle brake for those longer shots on larger game. Ruger American - amazing what they are producing for dirt cheap. Hope to get this one shooting in the little bit to see what the accuracy is. Used to have a 7RM that fit this role but decided to go back to a classic given all the really cool 30cal bullets available now.
I put my money into my target rifles as these don't get beat up. For me, a hunting rifle is a tool so I prefer to have resiliant functional and accurate rifle that fits me and how I hunt. Fancy is obtainable but I just can't bear to take them into the field. Been there, put the dents in them.
YMMV.
Jerry
ALBERTA BOY
Regular
- Location
- Edmonton, AB
I didn't realize that plastic guns with plastic magazine releases, trigger guards etc were 'resilient'.
I guess they're resilient as long as you don't drop them and shatter any of the plastic...
I'm sorry, how on earth is the Ruger American a "functional" hunting rifle? Have you tried steadying the rifle with a sling? Yep - the stock flexes so much from the pressure of the sling it touches the barrel and is no longer 'accurate.'
Spending money on target rifles and buying the cheapest possible hunting rifles (quite literally), seems pretty foolish. You're spending a lot of money and time on a hunt and the rifle (amortized) and ammo are honstly, probably going to be the cheapest parts of it.
Instead of owning all those garbage hunting rifles, why not own 1 really high quality one that can shoot when you've got it slung for support in a really versatile cartridge? When you're punching paper with a quality rifle, you're just punching paper. When you're shooting with a low quality hunting rifle, you're shooting at a living thing and risk ruining a hunt that costs thousands and may only come around once every few years depending on what you were drawn for.
I guess that's what our 'disposable society' is all about now. People seem to love owning cheap crap that they throw away when it breaks and buying more cheap crap. I think people are so far removed from quality these days that they actually don't know what they're missing with these kinds of rifles or, say, pressboard furniture...
- Location
- Dah Soo,ON
oh yeah, you know your glass, man!
Buy American/Canadian whenever possible. Because if we don't it could be your job sent offshore next
I haven't found a scope in any of leupolds price classes that match them for quality, clarity, durability, aftermarket turrets, and looks.
Now watch someone come in and start flappin about Euro-Trash Conquests.....
If it were me I'd go with a CZ 452 in 22 LR, a good bolt action 22-250, a 270 Win, a 300 Magnum of some sort (I like 300 H&H), and a 375 H&H. Personally I'd go with Winchester 70's for all the center fire rifles but that's just personal bias. For the shotguns while I love doubles I've always shot better with pumps so I'd go with a Winchester 42 in 410ga, and Winchester Model 12's in 20ga and 12ga but a synthetic waterfowl gun is probably a better idea. Actually this is pretty much what I have plus a few others.
westcoaster
CGN Regular
- Location
- Central BC
One can do it all with one rifle, but it is more pleasant and broadening to have several. In a way it's like golf you can play the whole course with a 7 iron but it's more fun to tee off with a wood, use the irons for the fairway shots and a putter for the green.
Start with an .22 rimfire like a CZ 452. These are a well made and extremely accurate full sized rifle. Great for inexpensive trigger time and close in varmints. Leupold makes a nice rimfire scope in their VX-2 Rimfire 3-9x33 EFR CDS.
Next, a varmint and light deer rifle like a 6.5x55 in a Sako 85 Bavarian or a CZ 550. These are good quality rifles that generally shoot well out of the box. I should say I do not have direct personal experience with the Sako`s but several of the people I hunt with have them and are very happy with them. Other cartridges in this range that would do the job, 243, 260, 6.5 Creedmore, 7mm08, 7x57, etc, come to mind. For glass I would look at a Nightforce 2.5-10x32, or a Swaro Z6 1.7-10x42, or on the value priced side the Zeiss Conquest in a 3-9x40, or a Bushnell Elite.
The mid range rifle would be a 3006 in a Kimber 84L Montana or a Nula 24B. This is what you hike over a mountain with to pop an elk or a goat. Glass should be similar to what is on the deer rifle so that one is not reaquainting oneself with a reticle. Depending on your personal preference this could also be in a 7mmrm, a 308, or one of the fast 300`s.
And finally, your bear whacker. Now before everyone chimes in with, `... but you can kill a bear with a 223`, just think about it and accept that if you can manage the recoil there is a tangible advantage to a bigger bullet, more energy to smash heavy bone structure, and a bigger wound channel. For this one I would select a Winchester Model 70 SS 338wm or a Sako 85 Brown Bear in 338wm or 375H&H, or a Ruger SS Hawkeye in 338wm. Again, keep the glass similar so that you are not thinking when you shoulder the rifle.
The nice thing about the 6.5x55, the 3006, and the 338wm is that their ballistic trajectories in 140, 180, and 250 are similar. If you did have a ballistic reticle there is a benefit to having all of your hold overs the same for all of your rifles.
I`m not a real shotgun guy so I won`t comment here except that my safes keep filling up with various pump action Winchesters in 12 guage.
Let`s not have too much of this one rifle talk.
I'd far rather have fewer high quality firearms than a large quantity of lower grade firearms. I'd rather have one excellent hunting rifle with an excellent scope than a dozen Mossbergs, Savage package rifles and Rem770s topped with Bushnell and Tasco scopes.
im glade you guys understand where I am coming from.
I do not wish to have anything synthetic.
I already put some light key mark character on my CZ 452, it just reminds me of that fun day of shooting. no biggie.
wood wins anyday.
right now im looking at the firearms carried at sail.
I know there are other stores but this one is local so I will probably end up buying from them.
originally I was thinking bolt action for everything. but part of me was thinking to have variety with lever and semi.
thought ruger mini 14 for 223 that thing is sweet, tho I hear it has some dirty barrel flex on firing.
I doubt it would really matter if I choose some semi's or levers over a bolt. not saying I am yet.
I do not wish to have anything synthetic.
I already put some light key mark character on my CZ 452, it just reminds me of that fun day of shooting. no biggie.
wood wins anyday.
right now im looking at the firearms carried at sail.
I know there are other stores but this one is local so I will probably end up buying from them.
originally I was thinking bolt action for everything. but part of me was thinking to have variety with lever and semi.
thought ruger mini 14 for 223 that thing is sweet, tho I hear it has some dirty barrel flex on firing.
I doubt it would really matter if I choose some semi's or levers over a bolt. not saying I am yet.
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Mystic Precision
CGN Ultra frequent flyer
- Location
- Summerland, BC
AB, I think you might want to look into what I have done with these Savage "crappy" rifles over the years. I understand where you are coming from. Been there done that - so have plenty of experience from that perspective too. We also build some pretty pricey rigs for hunters and competitors alike so I get to play with a WIDE range of toys. Custom actions, the best of barrels, stocks, triggers, you name it
Do you think I am being foolish using rifles that don't work? If you want to have a drive, happy to show you how my rifles DO work and they function very well. Accurate too.
In fact, I have had more problems over the years helping shooters with many higher dollar rifles that were not set up well. Price doesnt always ensure performance.
don't get me wrong, I love walnut stocks and even have a few more waiting for me to put together. All that custom stuff we work with is gorgeous and of course functions superbly. I am not doing this to be fool hearty, just to try stuff out and prove what they are capable of.
NO, my rifles work or I don't bother using them. With modern production methods, costs in bolt rifles have plummeted. Sure, there are these plastic fanstic stocks BUT they do work (with varying degrees of TLC) and the ergonomics are just like anything of a more fancy nature (unless you are talking custom fit stocks which are an entirely different story). forend flex can be mitigated and I certainly have not had an issue with it.
I really don't know your experiences with these new gen rifles. Yes, their pricing is way lower then traditional numbers. But the materials and construction for some are really good and that plastic, well, there are quite a few polymers that can handle abuse better then steel or aluminum. Most certainly better then wood of any kind.
Given the tens of thousands that have sold over the last 3 yrs, there is plenty of info out there. Yes, some are garbage. others are surprisingly very very good.
Now on this Ruger American, first impressions are very positive. I need to get it bedded and shooting before I can conclude on that side of the equation. BUT from the perspective of fit (it does fit me), trigger, bolt function and feeding, you have to try it before passing judgement. This rifle has been a huge surprise at how well it runs out of the box. I am not saying make excuses, best 3 out of 5, I am cycle it hard and see what happens. didn't think it would work as well as it does.
Ruger doesn't have as much as a 14 month backorder list for nothing. This quality is going to put huge pressure on all the main players cause they have raised the bar for ALL rifles. reports on accuracy have been positive but I will determine that myself. In the coming months, I will add to my post I started elsewhere.
There are now MILLIONS of HG's using polymer frames that have survived with flying colours. They even make engine blocks out of this stuff. There are MORE polymers we call plastic then metal alloys now with wider ranges of function and performance.
These plastic fantastic rifles may not be for you but the thousands that buy them seem to be doing just fine in the field.
So I get to play devils advocate cause I get to see both sides of the fence. There will always be a place for hand crafted tools - better be or I am not doing much business
But things have come a long ways and entry level price no longer means a lack in performance.
YMMV
Jerry
Do you think I am being foolish using rifles that don't work? If you want to have a drive, happy to show you how my rifles DO work and they function very well. Accurate too.
In fact, I have had more problems over the years helping shooters with many higher dollar rifles that were not set up well. Price doesnt always ensure performance.
don't get me wrong, I love walnut stocks and even have a few more waiting for me to put together. All that custom stuff we work with is gorgeous and of course functions superbly. I am not doing this to be fool hearty, just to try stuff out and prove what they are capable of.
NO, my rifles work or I don't bother using them. With modern production methods, costs in bolt rifles have plummeted. Sure, there are these plastic fanstic stocks BUT they do work (with varying degrees of TLC) and the ergonomics are just like anything of a more fancy nature (unless you are talking custom fit stocks which are an entirely different story). forend flex can be mitigated and I certainly have not had an issue with it.
I really don't know your experiences with these new gen rifles. Yes, their pricing is way lower then traditional numbers. But the materials and construction for some are really good and that plastic, well, there are quite a few polymers that can handle abuse better then steel or aluminum. Most certainly better then wood of any kind.
Given the tens of thousands that have sold over the last 3 yrs, there is plenty of info out there. Yes, some are garbage. others are surprisingly very very good.
Now on this Ruger American, first impressions are very positive. I need to get it bedded and shooting before I can conclude on that side of the equation. BUT from the perspective of fit (it does fit me), trigger, bolt function and feeding, you have to try it before passing judgement. This rifle has been a huge surprise at how well it runs out of the box. I am not saying make excuses, best 3 out of 5, I am cycle it hard and see what happens. didn't think it would work as well as it does.
Ruger doesn't have as much as a 14 month backorder list for nothing. This quality is going to put huge pressure on all the main players cause they have raised the bar for ALL rifles. reports on accuracy have been positive but I will determine that myself. In the coming months, I will add to my post I started elsewhere.
There are now MILLIONS of HG's using polymer frames that have survived with flying colours. They even make engine blocks out of this stuff. There are MORE polymers we call plastic then metal alloys now with wider ranges of function and performance.
These plastic fantastic rifles may not be for you but the thousands that buy them seem to be doing just fine in the field.
So I get to play devils advocate cause I get to see both sides of the fence. There will always be a place for hand crafted tools - better be or I am not doing much business
But things have come a long ways and entry level price no longer means a lack in performance.
YMMV
Jerry
AB, I think you might want to look into what I have done with these Savage "crappy" rifles over the years. I understand where you are coming from. Been there done that - so have plenty of experience from that perspective too. We also build some pretty pricey rigs for hunters and competitors alike so I get to play with a WIDE range of toys. Custom actions, the best of barrels, stocks, triggers, you name it
Do you think I am being foolish using rifles that don't work? If you want to have a drive, happy to show you how my rifles DO work and they function very well. Accurate too.
In fact, I have had more problems over the years helping shooters with many higher dollar rifles that were not set up well. Price doesnt always ensure performance.
don't get me wrong, I love walnut stocks and even have a few more waiting for me to put together. All that custom stuff we work with is gorgeous and of course functions superbly. I am not doing this to be fool hearty, just to try stuff out and prove what they are capable of.
NO, my rifles work or I don't bother using them. With modern production methods, costs in bolt rifles have plummeted. Sure, there are these plastic fanstic stocks BUT they do work (with varying degrees of TLC) and the ergonomics are just like anything of a more fancy nature (unless you are talking custom fit stocks which are an entirely different story). forend flex can be mitigated and I certainly have not had an issue with it.
I really don't know your experiences with these new gen rifles. Yes, their pricing is way lower then traditional numbers. But the materials and construction for some are really good and that plastic, well, there are quite a few polymers that can handle abuse better then steel or aluminum. Most certainly better then wood of any kind.
Given the tens of thousands that have sold over the last 3 yrs, there is plenty of info out there. Yes, some are garbage. others are surprisingly very very good.
Now on this Ruger American, first impressions are very positive. I need to get it bedded and shooting before I can conclude on that side of the equation. BUT from the perspective of fit (it does fit me), trigger, bolt function and feeding, you have to try it before passing judgement. This rifle has been a huge surprise at how well it runs out of the box. I am not saying make excuses, best 3 out of 5, I am cycle it hard and see what happens. didn't think it would work as well as it does.
Ruger doesn't have as much as a 14 month backorder list for nothing. This quality is going to put huge pressure on all the main players cause they have raised the bar for ALL rifles. reports on accuracy have been positive but I will determine that myself. In the coming months, I will add to my post I started elsewhere.
There are now MILLIONS of HG's using polymer frames that have survived with flying colours. They even make engine blocks out of this stuff. There are MORE polymers we call plastic then metal alloys now with wider ranges of function and performance.
These plastic fantastic rifles may not be for you but the thousands that buy them seem to be doing just fine in the field.
So I get to play devils advocate cause I get to see both sides of the fence. There will always be a place for hand crafted tools - better be or I am not doing much business
But things have come a long ways and entry level price no longer means a lack in performance.
YMMV
Jerry
This is simply the point I was attempting to make. I'm glad that someone else finally weighed in that has much more knowledge and experience than myself.
Synthetic stock doesn't have to be synonymous with low quality. Just the opposite in many cases, especially if you are more concerned with performance than having wood. And beleive me, much of the wood we see on factory rifles these days is not anything to write home about....
Most of the factory injection molded tupperware stocks are pretty poor, but it doesn't take much to get into a much better stock.
Most of the factory injection molded tupperware stocks are pretty poor, but it doesn't take much to get into a much better stock.
evil man just bloody evil, but you could have included actions.. an 06' lever browning ,a semi in 06' ,a break action in oooooo 06'
He said SLEW damnit. Dont talk the man outta buying guns!!!
One 30-06 for everything? What the hell is wrong with you, you sicko?
Maybe...
A lightweight .30-06 , 22" barrel, 2-7X33mm scope
A sporterweight .30-06, 24" Magnum/Fluted barrel, 3.5-10X40mm scope
A heavy, bull barrel, tactical stocked .300 WM, 26" barrel and 6.5-20X50mm
THATS how you brainwash minds man....
