Hunting is a coward's pastime!

I think I'll wait till all the facts are in before I sell the dentist down the river..... His past transgressions not withstanding.

The only "facts" that I know are true are that he has made several trips to Africa hunting. He paid 50K US to hunt a lion. He shot a lion while being guided by a licensed PH/outfitter.

I myself just can't fathom why a fella would pay that kind of cash plus airfare etc to knowingly illegally hunt a lion....

This is the same fella who has hunted polar bear, musk-ox, rhino, elephant, leopard and a score of other big game species......

My $.02
 
PETA is a bunch of crazies, we know that.

However, I seriously believe hunters need to clean up their ranks. It is one thing to hunt for turkey, deer, moose in order to enjoy a different type of meat or for coyotes to use fur for cold climate surviving. But it is a totally different think to go after what it's called "trophy hunting".

The whole meaning of a "trophy" comes from the understanding of a tough competition, a supreme achievement finalised with a well deserved win. While winning the Wimbledon trophy in tennis comes after such achievement, paying a bag of money to fly comfortably to the other sided of the world, going in the bushes with well equipped vehicles, being supported by a group of local specialists who practically either bring the animal in front of your sights or nicely place you at the best shooting position, having them backing you with their skills and guns in case you miss and the lion decides to jump at you, all this is not at all an achievement any more than it it is for a grandma to move faster in her Corolla than Usain Bolt runs on the track.

Second, the act of hunting for no purpose as described above (meat, fur for cold climate, etc.) leaves very little excuse for the "trophy hunter". It is therefore very easy to reach the conclusion that a guy (or gal) who enjoys this type of hunting does it just for the pleasure of ... killing, nothing more, like a deranged person. And this has very little to none acceptance in our world.

It is time for real hunters to vigorously separate from "trophy hunters". It is time to make "trophy hunting" a thing of the past.
 
Karpenter said:
PETA is a bunch of crazies, we know that.

However, I seriously believe hunters need to clean up their ranks. It is one thing to hunt for turkey, deer, moose in order to enjoy a different type of meat or for coyotes to use fur for cold climate surviving. But it is a totally different think to go after what it's called "trophy hunting".

The whole meaning of a "trophy" comes from the understanding of a tough competition, a supreme achievement finalised with a well deserved win. While winning the Wimbledon trophy in tennis comes after such achievement, paying a bag of money to fly comfortably to the other sided of the world, going in the bushes with well equipped vehicles, being supported by a group of local specialists who practically either bring the animal in front of your sights or nicely place you at the best shooting position, having them backing you with their skills and guns in case you miss and the lion decides to jump at you, all this is not at all an achievement any more than it it is for a grandma to move faster in her Corolla than Usain Bolt runs on the track.

Second, the act of hunting for no purpose as described above (meat, fur for cold climate, etc.) leaves very little excuse for the "trophy hunter". It is therefore very easy to reach the conclusion that a guy (or gal) who enjoys this type of hunting does it just for the pleasure of ... killing, nothing more, like a deranged person. And this has very little to none acceptance in our world.

It is time for real hunters to vigorously separate from "trophy hunters". It is time to make "trophy hunting" a thing of the past.
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Everyone's definition of trophy is not the same. To some people their first deer or first moose might be considered a trophy, even if it is a female. To other people the hunt itself defines the trophy, a tough hunt for a small animal is more of a trophy to them than a larger animal that was taken by just stepping out of the vehicle and shooting it. As for a person's reason to hunt, it might be meat, it might be the hide, it might be population control, be it game animals or rodents like ground squirrels, and it might be to share the time with friends or family as you pass on the tradition of hunting. I do like game meat, and I eat a fair bit of it, but I don't hunt to survive, I hunt to share the experience with friends and family, and the meat or the hide that I take home is a bonus to me.
 
Karpenter said:
...I seriously believe hunters need to clean up their ranks. It is one thing to hunt for turkey, deer, moose in order to enjoy a different type of meat or for coyotes to use fur for cold climate surviving. But it is a totally different think to go after what it's called "trophy hunting...the act of hunting for no purpose as described above (meat, fur for cold climate, etc.) leaves very little excuse for the "trophy hunter". It is therefore very easy to reach the conclusion that a guy (or gal) who enjoys this type of hunting does it just for the pleasure of ... killing, nothing more, like a deranged person. And this has very little to none acceptance in our world.

It is time for real hunters to vigorously separate from "trophy hunters". It is time to make "trophy hunting" a thing of the past.
Click to expand...

It's also very easy to reach the conclusion that you are one of those lovely folk who hold and loudly proclaim the strong opinions they have on topics about which they know absolutely nothing. While ignorance may indeed be bliss to some, it is not a condition to actively seek out and embrace.

A "trophy" is also defined as a token or memento of a successful hunt. My house is full of hunting trophies, and my two most treasured and prominently displayed are a tiny 6-point deer rack and a Jake turkey fan, both taken by my father on his final 2 hunts which I shared with him shortly before he passed away. Putting him into a position that allowed him to take these animals (at 82 years of age) was an endeavour not to be forgotten, and involved an effort on his part that almost defies belief. These trophies have no monetary value, and no sentimental value to anyone other than myself, but nevertheless they are trophies in the strictest and truest sense of the word. The meat the animals provided was put to good use, but it was a fleeting thing. The memories are permanent and priceless, and these trophies, as simple as they may be, are equally priceless.

It is both sad and irksome to hear the type of ignorance that is displayed in your post.
 
jjohnwm said:
It's also very easy to reach the conclusion that you are one of those lovely folk who hold and loudly proclaim the strong opinions they have on topics about which they know absolutely nothing. While ignorance may indeed be bliss to some, it is not a condition to actively seek out and embrace.

A "trophy" is also defined as a token or memento of a successful hunt. My house is full of hunting trophies, and my two most treasured and prominently displayed are a tiny 6-point deer rack and a Jake turkey fan, both taken by my father on his final 2 hunts which I shared with him shortly before he passed away. Putting him into a position that allowed him to take these animals (at 82 years of age) was an endeavour not to be forgotten, and involved an effort on his part that almost defies belief. These trophies have no monetary value, and no sentimental value to anyone other than myself, but nevertheless they are trophies in the strictest and truest sense of the word. The meat the animals provided was put to good use, but it was a fleeting thing. The memories are permanent and priceless, and these trophies, as simple as they may be, are equally priceless.

It is both sad and irksome to hear the type of ignorance that is displayed in your post.
Click to expand...

If you guys took those animals for food, that's a different story, and keeping something for you to remember does not mean the goal you had in your minds was "let's kill something because we love killing for nothing".

Choose you battles, you are now on the wrong side and you may fall with it. It is so sad to see mature people failing and falling without even knowing what for.

(BTW, this is not a forum of insults. This time I'll say pass. Next time I'll report your indecencies to have you suspended. Don't look at my thin record; you don't know whom you're speaking to. Have a nice day and enjoy a cold one.)

I feel sorry for you
 
Karpenter said:
PETA is a bunch of crazies, we know that.

However, I seriously believe hunters need to clean up their ranks. It is one thing to hunt for turkey, deer, moose in order to enjoy a different type of meat or for coyotes to use fur for cold climate surviving. But it is a totally different think to go after what it's called "trophy hunting".

The whole meaning of a "trophy" comes from the understanding of a tough competition, a supreme achievement finalised with a well deserved win. While winning the Wimbledon trophy in tennis comes after such achievement, paying a bag of money to fly comfortably to the other sided of the world, going in the bushes with well equipped vehicles, being supported by a group of local specialists who practically either bring the animal in front of your sights or nicely place you at the best shooting position, having them backing you with their skills and guns in case you miss and the lion decides to jump at you, all this is not at all an achievement any more than it it is for a grandma to move faster in her Corolla than Usain Bolt runs on the track.

Second, the act of hunting for no purpose as described above (meat, fur for cold climate, etc.) leaves very little excuse for the "trophy hunter". It is therefore very easy to reach the conclusion that a guy (or gal) who enjoys this type of hunting does it just for the pleasure of ... killing, nothing more, like a deranged person. And this has very little to none acceptance in our world.

It is time for real hunters to vigorously separate from "trophy hunters". It is time to make "trophy hunting" a thing of the past.
Click to expand...

Real hunters include trophy hunters. It is a tough and competitive achievement. Not everyone prevails, and no one prevails every time. Because its selective, trophy hunting is much more defensible than meat hunting. If the only reason to hunt is for meat, go to Safeway. If the only reason to hunt is to acquire warm clothing, try North Face. IMHO, a true hunter hunts, not for meat or for trophy, but to experience the act of hunting. It cannot be explained to someone who doesn't get it, so for those it must be explained from a different angle. Imagine North American farmers attempting to make a go of things when vast herds of buffalo swept across the planes. It couldn't be done. Fence lines would be destroyed, domestic stock would be killed, crops would be trampled, and it would be worth your life to attempt to work the land. Yet that is exactly the situation faced by African farmers living in game areas. The African native would much prefer that the elephant that tramples his crops, the lion that kills his stock, and the buffalo that chases his kids were extinct, that would make his life much easier. The only reason those animals are allowed to exist through much of Africa is due to hunting revenues. It makes those animals valuable. So if you profess to care about the future of African game, get your head straight with the necessity of trophy hunting
 
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Karpenter said:
If you guys took those animals for food, that's a different story, and keeping something for you to remember does not mean the goal you had in your minds was "let's kill something because we love killing for nothing".

Choose you battles, you are now on the wrong side and you may fall with it. It is so sad to see mature people failing and falling without even knowing what for.

(BTW, this is not a forum of insults. This time I'll say pass. Next time I'll report your indecencies to have you suspended. Don't look at my thin record; you don't know whom you're speaking to. Have a nice day and enjoy a cold one.)

I feel sorry for you
Click to expand...

Is that from the new Star Wars movie? Are you George Lucas? Or maybe Yoda? Your post reads more like Yoda.
 
Karpenter said:
If you guys took those animals for food, that's a different story, and keeping something for you to remember does not mean the goal you had in your minds was "let's kill something because we love killing for nothing".

Choose you battles, you are now on the wrong side and you may fall with it. It is so sad to see mature people failing and falling without even knowing what for.

(BTW, this is not a forum of insults. This time I'll say pass. Next time I'll report your indecencies to have you suspended. Don't look at my thin record; you don't know whom you're speaking to. Have a nice day and enjoy a cold one.)

I feel sorry for you
Click to expand...

You have made it very clear as to which side you are on, and with your attitude, your future on this forum is more at risk than most other people's.

Judging by your attitude, and the fact that you have only posted on this one hunting topic topic, I doubt very much that you are a hunter. As such, you appear to be as uniformed about hunting as most of the anti hunters are.
 
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Karpenter said:
If you guys took those animals for food, that's a different story, and keeping something for you to remember does not mean the goal you had in your minds was "let's kill something because we love killing for nothing".

Choose you battles, you are now on the wrong side and you may fall with it. It is so sad to see mature people failing and falling without even knowing what for.

(BTW, this is not a forum of insults. This time I'll say pass. Next time I'll report your indecencies to have you suspended. Don't look at my thin record; you don't know whom you're speaking to. Have a nice day and enjoy a cold one.)

I feel sorry for you
Click to expand...

I did not consider your record, don't care who you are, and neither spoke nor committed any "indecencies" or insults. Your original post comes far closer to that than anything I stated. I used the term "ignorance" in its correct sense, i.e. referring to lack of information or knowledge. Feel free to report anything you like.

My "side" may indeed fall, but it is due to that exact ignorance to which I referred...certainly not because mine is the "wrong side".

You could certainly find isolated cases to support your point, which seems to be that trophy hunters are wanton killers who seek only the trophy. There are of course some bad apples in every basket, but in my experience (which I hazard to guess far exceeds yours in this particular area...again implying a certain level of ignorance of the topic on your part) the vast majority of trophy hunters are, as I and others have stated, simply very selective in choosing an animal to take. When speaking to friends and family, they know that by using the term "trophy hunting" I am referring to a hunt which seeks more than merely meat. If strangers misinterpret the term, it because they simply don't understand anything about hunting, trophy or otherwise...I almost hesitate to use the "I-word" again, so let's just call it a lack of data on their part. Perhaps the term may eventually come to mean what you think it now does...I hope not, but popular usage could eventually alter accepted definition.

However, the definition of "ignorance" remains the same: a lack of knowledge, training or data.

Unfortunate and sad, but not indecent or insulting. Comparing someone to a "deranged person", on the other hand...
 
Originally Posted by Karpenter
If you guys took those animals for food, that's a different story, and keeping something for you to remember does not mean the goal you had in your minds was "let's kill something because we love killing for nothing".

Choose you battles, you are now on the wrong side and you may fall with it. It is so sad to see mature people failing and falling without even knowing what for.

(BTW, this is not a forum of insults. This time I'll say pass. Next time I'll report your indecencies to have you suspended. Don't look at my thin record; you don't know whom you're speaking to. Have a nice day and enjoy a cold one.)

I feel sorry for you
Click to expand...

karpenter,,IMO you are on the wrong side and not getting it,,you keep referring to killing, it's hunting,,Palmer paid for a guided hunt, went hunting and the hunt went wrong,,it happens in Africa and it happens in Canada.

You don't agree with lion hunting ,that's fine,,many do,,it is a legal activity, get over it,,

There will be an investigation of this hunt and it will go from there,,

I don't believe in "hanging" people until after they've been to trial and been found guilty,,

I hunt with guys who don't eat the meat from the animals we take,,are they killers or hunters.?

They are hunters, because they partake in the HUNT...meat hunter, fur hunter, trophy hunter,,,same

Make no mistake this is an attack on all hunting, not just so called trophy hunting,,

Before playing judge jury and executioner let's wait and hear what Palmer has to say for himself,,

And btw, no one has made any comments to you worthy of penalty from what I have read and stop making reference to yourself as "you don't know who you are talking to"

I'm sure no ones gives a sh##, and it's getting tiresome even after 6 posts,,
 
Karpenter said:
. . .
the act of hunting for no purpose as described above (meat, fur for cold climate, etc.) leaves very little excuse for the "trophy hunter". It is therefore very easy to reach the conclusion that a guy (or gal) who enjoys this type of hunting does it just for the pleasure of ... killing, nothing more, like a deranged person. And this has very little to none acceptance in our world.
Click to expand...

Man, that is homosapien, is a predatory being. Throughout his existence he has hunted for food and clothing and for pleasure. It is normal for a predator to enjoy killing, in nature the most successful predators are those which kill frequently. A couple of years ago polar bears in Button Bay were killing so many seals they were stockpiling them for later consumption. Preditors like to kill. Observe a weasel in a chicken coop, he'll not only kill more than he can possibly use, he'll kill everything, and look for more. The difference between man and the polar bear or man and the weasel, is that man appreciates the notion of moderation. He knows that with technology comes responsibility, because when technology without restraint, the tipping point between having game and having none can be rapidly approached. That is not the same thing as being unwilling to kill game, or not taking pleasure from hunting trophy animals.
 
Claybuster said:
You're damn right I did if he shot a giraffe. I believe in a concept called "fair chase."

There's lots of fair chase opportunity in Africa but giraffes aren't it.
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I'm not sure why I waste my time arguing with you when you clearly have no idea what you're talking about. You can easily hunt giraffe in a fair chase manner. Because they're tall and easy to spot doesn't make them easy to kill. Would you condemn someone who shoots a caribou, arguably the easiest big game animal in the world to approach and kill? Is it the ease of the hunt that offends you or have you simply been seduced by the allure of charismatic megafauna?
 
Karpenter said:
It is time for real hunters to vigorously separate from "trophy hunters". It is time to make "trophy hunting" a thing of the past.
Click to expand...

You have no idea what you are talking about. Look at the money contributed to Government agencies and conservation organizations by your reviled trophy hunters. Ever see the SCI auction catalog? How much do they bring in every year? Your "alleged" meat hunting will never raise that much money if you lived to be a thousand years old. Sustained utilization and selective harvest ensures the continued survival of all species.
 
Claybuster said:
You're damn right I did if he shot a giraffe. I believe in a concept called "fair chase."

There's lots of fair chase opportunity in Africa but giraffes aren't it.
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Why would game management policies apply to one animal and not another? From the standpoint of diminishing habitat alone, a giraffe harvest would seem appropriate. Giraffe's are hunted by lions, so its not like they have no natural enemies, they are as alert and watchful as any game animal. If you attempt to stalk a giraffe and the wind switches, he'd gone, and you won't catch him on foot. That sounds like fair chase to me. Fair chase relates to the activities of the hunter, it has nothing to do with the species of game.
 
stubblejumper said:
Perhaps the hunter was told that there was a lion permit, and perhaps this is all the fault of the PH who had to know that there was no permit for lion, that doesn't change the fact that the lion was poached. As to who is to be held accountable for the poached lion, the courts will have to decide that. I am thinking that Palmer's previous conviction, which was so similar to this situation, just might have an effect on whether the court believes that he is only a victim in this case. As to where the trial should be held, the lion was killed in Zim, so that is where the trial should be held. If you don't want to risk facing a trial in Zim, then stay out of Zim.
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Zimbabwe smells a payday, and that interests them much more than Palmer's guilt or innocence. If you go the third world, you go to experience their natural beauty, spend some money, help support their economy, and in the example of Zim, support their unusually good game management program. There is no reason to assume you might be thrown into their gulag over what well b e a false claim. Palmer is back in the States, let a western court adjudicate his guilt or innocence, and go from there.
 
It looks like millions are being pledged to the park. This would be Zims main chance to pick up some much needed hard currency. It also seems to be a report of the lions brother being poached today in the park itself. One report seems that his paperwork included a lion permit. There was a license quota sharing system in the province illegal but in operation. We will see this all play out in time. Oh I am a trophy hunter and as such normally end the seasons with my tags in my pocket not used. If this makes me a hated person oh well.
 
Oh I am a trophy hunter and as such normally end the seasons with my tags in my pocket not used.
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Why is is that trophy hunters, the people that supposedly hunt because they enjoy killing so much, often end up with unfilled tags? Could it be that the person that came up with such an asinine assumption, simply has no clue as to why people hunt?
 
stubblejumper said:
I am very much a hunter, and I will defend hunting, but I won't support a dentist that has previously been convicted of poaching, for killing a lion illegally. There was no valid permit for lion, where the lion was killed, so the lion was in fact poached. Unfortunately this illegal act has fired up the antis, and in the end, all hunters will suffer because of this.
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I don't hunt but I'd support anyone's right to hunt. Sadly this dentist sounds like a bit of a douche who thinks the rules don't apply to him. Prob deserves all he gets from this.
 
Boomer said:
Zimbabwe smells a payday, and that interests them much more than Palmer's guilt or innocence. If you go the third world, you go to experience their natural beauty, spend some money, help support their economy, and in the example of Zim, support their unusually good game management program. There is no reason to assume you might be thrown into their gulag over what well b e a false claim. Palmer is back in the States, let a western court adjudicate his guilt or innocence, and go from there.
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I wouldn't be the least bit surprised if some government/park officials were also involved in this and now with the sh*tstorm created by social media, they're throwing the PH and American hunter under the bus. There are already reports of the landowner having relations to a Zim minister, so he'll likely only get a slap on the wrist.

Palmer will be known worldwide as the "most evil person on earth", at least until early next week when another drunk sports fan gets fired for yelling obscenities at a female reporter.
 
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