Hunting North American game with dangerous game calibers?

[Dogleg]

Its more about bullet construction being suitable for what you’re hunting, impact velocity and where you hit it than the cartridge itself. I not sure why its hard to grasp thata combination that can shoot through 6’ of unhappy buffalo likely isn’t the fastest dispatcher of a 200 pound deer. The .375 made its reputation with three bullet weights and differing construction, and at open sight style ranges. They knew what they were doing.

You could do worse than using small, light, fast and soft bullets on small, light, fast and soft animals. Naturally it follows that big, heavy,slow and hard bullets are a better match for big, heavy, slow and hard animals.

 

[Northern Shooter]

Its more about bullet construction being suitable for what you’re hunting, impact velocity and where you hit it than the cartridge itself. I not sure why its hard to grasp thata combination that can shoot through 6’ of unhappy buffalo likely isn’t the fastest dispatcher of a 200 pound deer. The .375 made its reputation with three bullet weights and differing construction, and at open sight style ranges. They knew what they were doing.

You could do worse than using small, light, fast and soft bullets on small, light, fast and soft animals. Naturally it follows that big, heavy,slow and hard bullets are a better match for big, heavy, slow and hard animals.

Bullet construction and expansion characteristics is something I'm still reading up on. I am particularly curious at what the lower velocity minimums would be for some of these larger calibers to still allow adequate expansion.

For example I've heard that many bullets perform optimum expansion between 1800-2000 fps impact velocities. When you look at something like the .458 WinMag, you're only starting out at 2,150 fps on the high end. The Hornady DGX for example is 1871 fps at 100 yards, 1626 fps by 200 yards. Does that mean that this round will not properly expand beyond 100m or does that large projectile weight offset the physics of this?

 

[4fifty8]

.45 caliber doesn't have to expand much think of a .30 caliber that expands by about 50% plus it has a lot more weight. Hornady .458 500gr RN @ ~1600 fps impact went clear thru quartering on a big Moose wide wound channel 1 shot dropped DRT.

 

[Ben_in_Canada]

I've thought about taking my 338LM out if I get a Moose tag or should I stick to 180g bullets with the .308?

 

[track]

I had a Blaser S2 chambered in the 9.3x74R, however, never shot anything with it. I sold it in 2006, but I plan on purchasing another one in the near future.

 

[DGY]

I took only one moose with the 9.3x62 and it was a one shot kill at just over 100m, 286gn partiton went between neck and shoulder, through the hart and of the opposite front third rib into the car leg! That moose went down faster than any moose I shot before! But I doubt it is because of the 9.3, 30-06 would have done the same!!

 

[Northern Shooter]

I took only one moose with the 9.3x62 and it was a one shot kill at just over 100m, 286gn partiton went between neck and shoulder, through the hart and of the opposite front third rib into the car leg! That moose went down faster than any moose I shot before! But I doubt it is because of the 9.3, 30-06 would have done the same!!

So far it's looking like those 9.3's have been popular choices for moose here.

Has anyone used anything more exotic? 404 Jeffery? 458 Lott? 470 NE? 505 Gibbs? Just because.

 

[FLHTCUI]

Friend shot a ptarmigan with his .375 H&H took it's head clean off.

For the Win !!

 

[Ardent]

Its more about bullet construction being suitable for what you’re hunting, impact velocity and where you hit it than the cartridge itself. I not sure why its hard to grasp thata combination that can shoot through 6’ of unhappy buffalo likely isn’t the fastest dispatcher of a 200 pound deer. The .375 made its reputation with three bullet weights and differing construction, and at open sight style ranges. They knew what they were doing.

You could do worse than using small, light, fast and soft bullets on small, light, fast and soft animals. Naturally it follows that big, heavy,slow and hard bullets are a better match for big, heavy, slow and hard animals.

Yep. A repeated struggle outfitting was American clientele’s “big gun” mindset for grizzlies and explaining that what they thought was more effective due to being bigger, was less for what we were doing unless they selected some very non-standard loads (300 and 350gr fast .45s etc).

None of our game on this continent except bison raises an argument for stiff, extremely heavy bullets, and even on them reasonable speed is beneficial in my experience. I told Americans to bring their elk rifles for grizzlies, moose, and goats. Usually that was a .300, the 7 Mag was warmly received in camp as well, as was the .30-06.

I tried the .505 Gibbs myself as the biggest end I used on bear, and it was very underwhelming due to the velocity and stiff bullet construction, less impressive than a .270. Definitely fatal, but mirrored 9.3s experiences with the walk before tipping over. I saw the same on big bears from a 7x57 175gr and .450 Marlin, and came to the conclusion it was a velocity of impact game, with a heavy influence of bullet construction intertwined.

All our game here less Bison are thin skinned of course, classically Big Five choices except the .375 H&H are a downgrade in my opinion over a .30-06 and any other standard quick, modern chambering. I used the .375 extensively, and guided it. It’s just a bigger .30-06 and is quick enough to be highly effective. I’d stop there in the search for heavier North American chamberings, and recognize it’s likely less effective than Dogleg’s .300 RUM on Grizzlies and the like. But not so much less so to be a silly choice.

The .375 blends sufficient speed with penetration, and remains sensible on this continent as it is on the dark continent.

 

[Northern Shooter]

As long as the shooter is proficient at using one of these larger calibers, is capable of handling the recoil and has selected the appropriate bullet choice; I don't see any reason they should be avoided on North American game.

While the stalwart 30.06 and 300WM choices will be adequate for any of our game species, they don't excite one's soul in the same way as when carrying the likes of a 375, 416 or a 458.

 

[Ardent]

But aside from the .375 due to its speed, and peculiar non standard (greater than 2500fps) fast loadings of the .458s, modern chamberings (.300 et al) certainly more effective. Especially so on the stuff we get romantic about like Grizzlies.

Unless you need to penetrate four or more feet of Pleistocene bone and sinew and a leaded tarp of a hide, it’s all just for kicks. I played at length with them, .450 Rigby, .450 Nitro, .470 Nitro, .458 Lott, .505 Gibbs, .577 Nitro 3”. At the end I found what ballisticians had more than a hundred years ago, speed was more important than bore diameter by a large margin. As a hobbyist, they still tickle my fancy, they’re fun and I get that. I really won’t call anyone silly for using them either, in fact I applaud it. The part I’ll argue and suggest might be silly is when folks think it’s doing the job better than a normal, 2700fps+ chambering here on our game.

I can assure you, they’re well behind the .300 or .30-06 on average in on game effect for thin skinned game, with their conventional loadings. And in the same breath, yep they’re fun.

 

[Northern Shooter]

But aside from the .375 due to its speed, and peculiar non standard (greater than 2500fps) fast loadings of the .458s, modern chamberings (.300 et al) certainly more effective. Especially so on the stuff we get romantic about like Grizzlies.

Unless you need to penetrate four or more feet of Pleistocene bone and sinew and a leaded tarp of a hide, it’s all just for kicks. I played at length with them, .450 Rigby, .450 Nitro, .470 Nitro, .458 Lott, .505 Gibbs, .577 Nitro 3”. At the end I found what ballisticians had more than a hundred years ago, speed was more important than bore diameter by a large margin. As a hobbyist, they still tickle my fancy, they’re fun and I get that. I really won’t call anyone silly for using them either, in fact I applaud it. The part I’ll argue and suggest might be silly is when folks think it’s doing the job better than a normal, 2700fps+ chambering here on our game.

I can assure you, they’re well behind the .300 or .30-06 on average in on game effect for thin skinned game, with their conventional loadings. And in the same breath, yep they’re fun.

Where would you draw the line velocity-wise then where the bigger bores start showing to be less effective (lethal) on our game vs the faster moving 30 cals? 2,500 fps?

For example your typical .416 load is throwing a 400 grain projectile at or around 2,400 fps. In you experience, would this kill a Grizzly/Bison less effectively than a 200 grain 300 WinMag doing 3,000 fps?

 

[Ardent]

For sure on the last question there, the .300 will outperform a conventional .416 load all considered on Grizzly. Both will result in an equally dead bear, the .300 will do it quicker on average and give you a longer range to do it over.

There’s a few points though, first is the FBI ballistics lab and militaries long before found impacts above 2200fps caused drastically more tissue damage all of a sudden. What the FBI found was that was the threshold where shock waves traveling through tissue rupture cell walls, leaving permanent damage after the bullet’s come to rest or departed. Below that threshold, the effect suddenly switches off. To be clear this is a separate effect from the central nervous system bang flop effect found more often in fast chamberings. Further above 2200fps impacts, the increased tissue damage simply increases and travels further from the initial wound tract, so there’s no speed you can say it’s completely “on or off” at, just that it presents after 2200fps and increases the faster the impact is. The Rigby would be at the very base of modern speed, (many modern loads do better though than 2400) and won’t carry that effect very far down range, but it does get there. .375 carries it further, with a 270 in particular. That’s the first answer.

Second answer is the bullet matters, which won’t come as a surprise, stiff bullets built for big bores moving slow are incredibly stiff, and penetrate more than disrupt. They also often are loaded below the 2200fps impact threshold in conventional Big Five chamberings. That’s two strikes for thin skinned game. I liked to see chamberings for north american game I guided that can make 2700-3000fps, with a minimum ideally of 2500fps at the muzzle. Overall it made our jobs easier.

 

[Demonical]

I've shot a few big game animals with the .416RM, all with 400gr Hornady Interbond slugs.

The first animal I shot was a timber wolf, at about 220 yards. Off hand shot in a big cutblock. The wolf collapsed without even a quiver. Center shot through the lungs. That huge slug barely expanded on that light skinned wolf. I have no pics of that wolf.

The moose in this pic was shot at 250 yards, both of my shots were center of the lungs and my buddy hit it in the stomach with a 250gr from his .338WM in between my 2 shots.

The rifle is a Brno ZKK-602 in .416RM. Still has the original stock in these pics.

This black bear was shot point-blank distance 26 paces. The shot hit right in the inside of his front right chest area... the bear was walking directly toward me... and the slug went straight through the heart and on.

Massive blood trail. Heart grenaded.

I also shot 2 other black bears with my 9.3x62. Both died after 1 shot each, literally within seconds. Center lung shots. No pics of those 2 bears.

 

[Longwalker]

Yup, Dogleg and Ardent know what they're talking about. Longest recovery I've ever had after a good hit was a bull elk I shot at around 90 M with a .450-400 3" Nitro Express. He ran at least 150M with both lungs perforated dead centre. Bullet was just too hard to open adequately from the light resistance the elk offered. I used a 400 gr. Hornady DGX bonded. That bullet did a very good job on a cape buffalo and a moose at similar ranges, but bullet hit bone soon after impact and that helped expansion. Buffalo and moose went only a short ways.
I've used a .375 H&H with 260 gr. Nosler Partitions at about 2700 fps MV for a couple elk and one black bear, and I like that combination. Good shock effect, quick kills, little meat damage. One whitetail with the .375 and a 300 gr. Hornady standard RN at about 2400. That one actually did blow a bigger hole than I expected but only because I hit too low, on the low point of the chest as the deer that was facing me. Split the brisket lengthwise right down to the diaphragm and the lungs nearly fell out. Made field dressing really easy and ruined no meat.
Shot a couple elk and a couple small black bears with 9.3x62 and 9.3x74R if you consider them dangerous game cartridges, and got perfect performance from 285 gr. Norma Oryx and Lapua Mega bullets. Those bullets open quite easily. I like the 9.3's but have no plans to use them for deer. While hunting in dangerous game country during two safaris in Africa I have carried a .375 and a .416 and used them for the smaller critters. One of the more interesting recoveries was an impala I shot just behind the heart, through both lungs with a .416 Rem, / 400 gr. TSX. It ran about 150 M before expiring. Exit hole was not much more than bullet sized though.

 

[Northern Shooter]

Enjoying the accounts of everyone's experiences here. It sounds like there is a consensus that these cartridges are not ideal for deer sized game, more appropriate for elk, moose and bear but still a preference for the smaller 9.3/375s at higher velocities.

If these aren't ideal on our biggest bears or moose, would bison be the lone game with thick enough skin to justify the 416s and on up?

 

[geologist]

The other benefits of the 30-06 are that in normal.weight rifles, almost everyone, regardless of size, can shoot one well due to lack of flinch. And shot placement trumps almost everything else. Look at Karamojo Bell's numerous elephant culls with his little 6.5 x 54 MS.

Plus you can buy ammo at most northern stores and gas stations.............

 

[Northern Shooter]

The other benefits of the 30-06 are that in normal.weight rifles, almost everyone, regardless of size, can shoot one well due to lack of flinch. And shot placement trumps almost everything else. Look at Karamojo Bell's numerous elephant culls with his little 6.5 x 54 MS.

Plus you can buy ammo at most northern stores and gas stations.............

Already own a couple 30.06s and .308s. Use them for deer but I just get bored of them which started me along this path for new cartridges.

 

[vladbkk]

I shot a deer with my 9.3 x 62 and it fell like his four legs were cut off! I shot a moose and the bullet went right through and the exit hole was the size of a golf ball.
I shot another moose at 230 years and he fell in his tracks. (but I hit him In the spine) Very powerful caliber. i use 286 grains bullets!

 

[medvedqc]

So far it's looking like those 9.3's have been popular choices for moose here.

Has anyone used anything more exotic? 404 Jeffery? 458 Lott? 470 NE? 505 Gibbs? Just because.

we have the best defendant of the 9,3x62. we even designed the .366 wagner ... needless to say the9,3x62 /9.3x74r are great calibers for the game we have here.