Hunting Rare Game and the Moral Implications Thereof

Agreed, a very thoughtful post, and a pleasure to read.

I seem to recall that the rational for the idea of hunting dollars saving wildlife populations from extinction was based on the fact that the grazing wildlife competed directly with native-owned cattle and/or damaged crops, and therefore was of negative value to the local farmers/herdsmen. By attaching a value to these animals that accrued to the native peoples when (relatively) wealthy foreign sportsmen paid big bucks to come and hunt, the wildlife became a commodity worth protecting. I can't say that this has or hasn't worked out this way, just repeating an idea seen elsewhere. Seems plausible to me, though.

As for the rarity of a given species, it's quite difficult to determine what is or is not rare in some cases. Granted, no one would suggest that rhinos are abundant, but as stated in another posting, most species that are rare in one locale can be common elsewhere. My dental hygienist has very authoritatively stated to me that Black Bears are becoming increasingly rare and need to be protected from all hunting! I don't doubt that she sees few of them in her suburban Toronto backyard, but I think they're generally pretty safe from extinction. And yet the information she has seen to lead her to this conclusion is presented very convincingly by PETA et al. How would she know the difference? I continue my efforts to edumacate her, but a guy laying in a reclining chair with a mouthful of drool somehow fails to make the same impact as a multi-megadollar Anti campaign.

And why would we as Canadians go to Africa, or anywhere else exotic, to go hunting. I remember the thrill of my first turkey hunt here at home when they became commonly available for hunting. A whole new species, and whole new thrilling hunting experience! And this was for ONE species, that I hunted on my own back forty here at home. How can you wonder why a hunter would crave the lure of an exotic destination and numerous exciting new and unfamiliar types of game?

My $0.02.

John
 
Dogleg said:
Ardent,
I'm not sure what to make of your post, except that you don't like dentists and lawyers. I'm with you on the lawyers though.;)
Did you know that elephant populations are estimated at 800,000 and that culling is conducted to reduce populations? Most people don't realize that that leopards are the most widely distributed mammal in Africa. The tree-huggers have done such a number on the world that they have even have hunters believing their garbage. Foreign hunters are the salvation of African game. Putting a dollar sign on big game may seem crass to you, but if they aren't worth more to the locals alive and huntable than dead, eaten and their habitat destroyed what do you think they would pick?
Why would someone leave Canada to hunt Africa? Because we can!
Iremember reading that in the 30's to the 50's that game warden's would try to keep the elephant population's out of native village's crop area's using large firecrackers to scare them. when that failed they would have to start shooting them!
The writer C.J.P. Ionides, was firmly on the side of the elephant btw!
 
Ardent, your post was a very good read and I completely agree. My only addition to the thread is regarding the odd person who says things like the "elephants (and other wild animals of south africa) are plentiful..." and "we're doing the locals a favor by hunting them....." And while I'm not saying they are necessarily on the verge of extinction, don't fool yourself in thinking there's alot of them just because they've been driven out of their normal habitat into smaller areas due to over-farming and exploding world population/civilization. I know numerous people who have travelled and explored south africa with first hand observations and said that some locals are "glad to have the elephant hunted because they're congregating in one particular spot and are aggressive...ruining their crops....." mmmm... maybe because they're running out of range that provides an abundant supply of food, water and cover. Of course we see examples of that all over the world. While I'm certainly not against controlled hunting of a population where the animal is harvested by a competant and humane hunter for food, clothing etc. and where the animal is obviously plentiful (as I have done this myself numerous times), I think it is the few delusional and ignorant people that ruin it for everyone who need to be kept in check (and in my personal opinion with whatever means necessary)
 
If it's illegal to hunt, you won't find me hunting it. If it's expensive to hunt you won't find me hunting it.
That doesn't mean I wouldn't like to.
On the ethical side, there are lots of game I'd like to hunt, that are not ethical to hunt. But ethics alone won't stop me, $ will. If I had the money... well, if it were legal, I'd have to consider why it was legal, when it was unethical, and go from there.
 
Ardent, you obviously have some deeply held feelings about hunting and how it should be carried out. One might say your opinions are "ardently" held. You do paint with a rather broad brush, however, and I'm not sure exactly what it is you don't like. You range from hunting endangered species in South America to small enclosure shooting of game anywhere. I think you also deplore the use of guides (I might be mistaken here) and don't care for the loud mouth "Hoo-haw" braggadocio that is often depicted on television shows. I think you also do not like to see others travel to hunt.

To start with, I agree totally that fair chase hunting is a ideal (and a practicality) that we who call ourselves hunters should strive for. We should treat the hunting process, the quarry and each other with respect. We should respect those who hold opinions contrary to ours but we should fight with no quarter given to preserve our right to hunt. Obviously, we should not hunt rare, or endangered species, and in fact, we should actively support their survival and prosperity.

But you seem to go beyond these excellent principles to include some with less obvious merit. You seem to be critical of those who use guides, of those who travel, and even of those who honour and respect the past. I love to travel. I love to hunt. For me, to combine these two passion is natural. Assuming always that the conditions of the previous paragraph are met, how is this bad? On what basis is hunting within a mile of the house morally superior, and unethical behaviour increases with distance? When I was a young man, I gloried in doing my own heavy lifting, but now that many, many decades have gone past in my life, I am content to pay someone to do the heavy lifting and lead the way. How is this immoral? I glory in days gone by and a world that we will never see again. I have no intention of emulating the practices of hunters of the past, but neither do I condemn hunters of the past by today's morality.

I am not a wealthy dentist, but I have used whatever financial resources I possess to hunt as much of the world that I can reach. I do not own a wide screen TV, an RV, an iPod, or a shiny new diesel pickup truck. These are the sacrifices I have made to be able to do what I have done. Does this make me morally inferior?

Africa is a destination in the mind more than it is a place on the map. Most hunters go to Africa for other reasons than to just kill animals. If species aren't endangered, fair chase is employed and the place is left better for you having been there, how is this wrong?

Ardent, you raise some very good points and your opening post generates discussion we should all dwell on. I urge you to recognize the boundary between ethical considerations that most of us can agree on and personal style and preferences which are just that - personal style and preference!
 
There's a difference between rare game and endangered game. I have no problem with controlled hunting of rare game.

Endangered species should be given all the chance they can get.

If there's a surplus of, say elephants in one place but they are endangered elsewhere, and transporting and re-establishing surplus animals is not practical, then hunting the area of surplus should be OK.
 
Good post Angus. I generally agree with the view you are presenting, with the Safari Club representing the attitude you seem to despise (me too). I have had some contact with many of these individuals and quite frankly their attitude towards game, and often people, makes me mad.

On the other hand though, I think the subject of poaching and "trophy hunting" to be a red herring. Just like the mental midgets (no offence to the vertically challenged) who give their money to the Western Canada Wilderness Comittee or the World Wildlife Fund or PETA and think that if they can stop hunting all the fuzzy little species will be just fine, and then jump in their 10MPG Hummer or Mercedes SUV and drive home to sit in the natural gas heated hot tub outside thier natural gas heated home, etc., etc.

The real problem is not hunting, poaching, or even population growth; it is the loss, fragmentation, and increased access to wildlife habitats that is driving many species to extinction. Grizzly bears are NOT endangered from hunting! They are endangered from forestry roads, seismic/mineral exploration and human recreation. Here and around the world.

We do not help wildlife as hunters when we insist that roads are left open in critical habitats, or we drive our quads off road, or we just plain make a f___g mess of the areas we hunt.

I believe this has to be one of the better discussions I have seen on this subject.
 
What?

Pudelpointer --> excellent point and I totally agree, generally it is NOT the hunters who are screwing up the wildlife habitat, it is BIG Corp. with their hands in the governments pockets.
I'm sorry to corrupt this excellent and until recently intelligent, stimulating discussion but this needs to be said and most of you know it.
"There's a difference between rare game and endangered game.....":confused: ....mmm...because rare game are just fun that way and enjoy being rare to see how close they can become to being endangered...oh brother....here's when a good discussion has the ability to bring the genius' out of the woodwork. Man, just when I was enjoying a good poker game on TV too....:rolleyes:
"If there's a surplus of, say elephants in one place but they are endangered elsewhere, and transporting and re-establishing surplus animals is not practical, then hunting the area of surplus should be OK" ...:eek: lol.... how do you have a surplus of an endangered species of animal?
How could it not become practical to not save the elephants or _ _ _ _ species? because it cost a couple bucks? or so that we (or they in this case referring to south africans) can just plant one more minimally efficient beet field? Think longer-term people, beyond the next few years you and I have left sucking air. The whole point boils down to long-term management, no, of course shooting one more elephant or one more tiger today just so you can come back home and justify your $5000. safari hunt to your buddies over beers babbling about how fearless you were covered by 4 "guides" manning back-up shots on an animal you just happened upon standing in the road, is not going to throw the world in a tailspin. But what about 1 more tiger a day for the next 25 years when the population is on a decline, which has without ANY doubt been proven 100x over (rare or endangered) due to overpopulation/poor conservation/3rd world agriculture practices/corrupt governments and the enormous persuasion of a north american's savings account to a poor 3rd worlder with hungry children. Give me a F$%^ing break and get serious. Call me crazy or heretic but thinking about next gererations of kids (and ADULTS) looking at pictures in a history book of magnificent animals like tigers, elephants or _ _ _ _ _ species pisses me off. If in 25 years from now you can come back to me and say 'see look-you were a kook for getting all worked up over nothing because there's still lots of all the wild species around' then I will buy you all the beer you can drink and happily listen to those bulls**t stories. Until then, I refuse to suck-up off-hand rhetoric from tools with one finger in their nose and the other in their bum without putting my 2 cents in.
Just my opinion anyway, and everyone is entitled to one:)
 
Last edited:
it was not sport hunting, trophy hunting, or whatever you call it that drove the various tigers (caspian, etc) over the edge, and the rhinos to the brink of extintion. it was poaching for chinese medicine and arabic dagger handles. also, mao tsetung purposely set out to get rid of the chinese tigers during the cultural revolution. it wasn't sport hunting that depleted the north american bison either. the same could be said of the european bison. in fact, i would like to know of one species that is in danger of extintion because of, or was wiped out by sport hunting. wolves on the british ilses aren't among them either, predators are not appriciated where sheep and cattle are being raised. same goes with grizzlies in the lower 48 states of the US. and for the jaguar in cattle country from the southern US south through the amazon too.

one can also ask where the last population of asiatic lions exists......on the former hunting park of some maharaja.

leopards are far from endangered, they are also one of the most (if not the most) widespread large mammals on earth.

paying hunters are the best friends that wildlife could have, whether it be in north america or africa, if wildlife doesn't have value to somebody, it will not exist in anything but the remotest areas. we in north america are affluent enough that we can appreciate wildlife for "noble" reasons, but it is still hunters that pay the tab. what chance to you think that wildlife would have in a protein starved country if dentists and lawyers didn't come and pay to hunt it?

seems to me that this is just another thread that boils down to jealousy. whether it is of people who can afford a certain lifestyle (ie dentists and lawyers) or of people like boddington who make a living hunting.
 
If a species that is endangered does overpopulate in one or two isolated areas, exceeding the carrying capacity of the local environment, then there can indeed be a "surplus" of that species with respect to those areas.

In terms of the practicality or feasibility of transplanting specimens from that area to others where the species is still rare, it may very well be that the cost of such a transplant effort might benefit the species as a whole more efficiently if the money were spent on habitat protection or restoration, establishment of captive breeding programs, or any of a number of other strategies.

It's such a relief to see that this thread, which has remained in a civilized state for longer than many other controversial ones, has now sunk to red-faced, fire-breathing name calling. I was almost afraid that we could discuss things politely for a change.

John
 
Well I guess if you never have two differing extremes of an opinion, you won't get a heartfelt debate. ;) And at least we're not debating stupid stuff like which gun is really the best for bear protection by people who live in the middle of toronto ...ehhe :rolleyes:
 
Back
Top Bottom