Hunting Red Deer in Northern Ontario

.Ben

.Ben

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I live Near North Bay ontario and theres a rumor amoung the rednecks out here that you can hunt "Red Deer" anytime of the year and without a tag/reporting it becasue they are escaped deer from a farm and they want them gone,

is there any truth to this?:confused:

im told you only need a hunting/small game liesence to hunt them:confused:
 
Yes it is true, and I may be one of those Redneck's you speak of, LOL! There are two farms East of NB that raise Red Deer and there is no longer much of a market for them for meat and the "canned" hunting of them was ended a few years back. The animals however keep multiplying and now and then a few seem to miraculously escape. Myself and a few guys I worked with who live in the area shot a few of them a couple years ago. I havent seen any since the spring of '09 though. There were about 2 dozen running around the fall of '08 and by Feb of '09 the herd was down to about 9.
I have a friend who is a retired C.O and he took three that fall. He told me first hand you only need a small game license and there is no season on them. The MNR wants them GONE! No if's ands or buts as do the owners because the owners are responsible for their recovery. The MNR will charge them for the escaped animals if they are not rounded up or shot off. A similar occurrence happened in New Liskeard and two friends of mine in the area along with a C.O went out and dispatched a herd of 9 one day. The owner was very relieved as he was going to be charged for their escape if he diodnt recover them. He told the C.O. who contacted him after I called in to report their whereabouts to go ahead and shoot them.
 
blasted_saber said:
I have no idea. Best bet would be to call MNR and ask them.

I however would ask you to be extremely cautious if you get approval because their are elk around the area.
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Elk and Red Deer are technically the same species, are they not? That could be a sticky legal issue.
 
blasted_saber said:
No. No more the same then White tails and mule deer.
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I don't think so. Unless they have very recently been "split" by zoologists, both Red Deer and Elk (and Maral Stag and probably others as well) are merely various subspecies of the species Cervus elaphus. Elk are the canadensis subspecies of Cervus elaphus.

Whitetails (Odocoileus virginianus) and Mule Deer (Odocoileus hemionus) are two separate species, but in the same genus.
 
jjohnwm said:
Elk and Red Deer are technically the same species, are they not? That could be a sticky legal issue.
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No they definitely are not. The MNR does not want them mixing with our native wildlife or taking the chance on spreading CWD. When you hear them call you can pick out the difference easily. The Red Deer which is a stag has a unique roaring sound, not the high pitched squeal like an Elk and they are smaller in body size coming in somewhere between a good size Muley and an Elk. As for the legalities involved? The farmers reported to the MNR as well as some of the other local farmers and hunters here that they were out and if they saw them to please shoot them. That is the only legal issue involved, the owner must approve their destruction otherwise you can end up with a civil action against you......

The first time I saw them my buddy called to say he had a dozen in his back 40 and to come get them. Two of us tried to pull a sneak on them in an open plowed field in January, not easy! We got to within about 300 yards but thats as close as we could get without them spooking. Well they were not as far as we thought after shooting over their backs. A whitetail had been with them behind a couple hay bales we hadnt seen. When we opened up the whitetail busted out and ran too alongside them.Thats when we realised they werent as large as our "perception" of them was. We got two with a set of follow up shots after realising they were closer than we first realised. My buddy downed both with his 30-06. I took one about a month later on an adjacent farm with my 348.
 
I've seen both animals and realize that they are quite distinctive in appearance and in vocalization. Antlers, size, colouration, body proportions, all different, and the differences make identifying the animal easy. I also don't doubt that the Ministry staff would like to see them eliminated and would encourage hunters interested in doing so.

My point is that technically, on paper, to a zoologist, they are members of the same species. I just checked the MNR website and, fortunately, the ministry appears to not list the latin names but simply uses the common names Elk and Red Deer. Otherwise, the question of shooting one would fall into a legal grey area and the wrong people could try to make an issue of it. You know who they are...the same types of folks who try to get hunting banned due to "animal cruelty" laws, who try to use noise bylaws to curtail legal shooting on rural property, who go in through the back door and try to outlaw lead bullet ammo and thereby cripple the hunting world...those nice people. You don't want to leave them any loopholes that they can turn into nooses.

Normally, scientific (latin) names are needed and used to accurately determine which species of critter is being discussed, and they do so with more precision than common terminology. It looks like, in this case, not using them is the better choice.:)
 
jjohnwm said:
I don't think so. Unless they have very recently been "split" by zoologists, both Red Deer and Elk (and Maral Stag and probably others as well) are merely various subspecies of the species Cervus elaphus. Elk are the canadensis subspecies of Cervus elaphus.

Whitetails (Odocoileus virginianus) and Mule Deer (Odocoileus hemionus) are two separate species, but in the same genus.
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No. The genus is Cervus and the species is elaphus (red deer)/canadensis (elk).

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Red_Deer
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/elk

You show it yourself with the WT/mule deer example: same genus ( Odocoileus) different species (virginanus/hemionus).

Look at it this way. Lake trout (salvelinus namaycush) and brook trout (salvelinus fontinalis) are different species of the same genus just like red deer/elk. They are not considered the same thing under fishing regulations.
 
Ok, We went through this last year with the MNR in our area. In Ontario if you see Red deer you are technically required to call the MNR and give them a location. They are required to shoot them. Now the MNR also said, if they shoot the red deer they have to charge the farm owner for not reporting it.
If you shoot a red deer, you can be charge with shooting someone's livestock. Just like shooting someone's cows. They are owned by the individual. But if you shoot it and don't report it, the owner is not likely to press charges, because charges would be laid against the owner for not notifying the MNR. Its a grey area and a risk. But up to you. Just don't inform the MNR you did it. You may get away with it if your a farmer if you report it.
 
blasted_saber said:
No. The genus is Cervus and the species is elaphus (red deer)/canadensis (elk).

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Red_Deer
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/elk

You show it yourself with the WT/mule deer example: same genus ( Odocoileus) different species (virginanus/hemionus).

Look at it this way. Lake trout (salvelinus namaycush) and brook trout (salvelinus fontinalis) are different species of the same genus just like red deer/elk. They are not considered the same thing under fishing regulations.
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Wickipedia? Seriously?

Wickipedia does indeed state what you do. However, look up any reputable source and you will see that the genus is Cervus (must be capitalized) and the species (small case) is elaphus. For elk, the subspecific name is canadensis, i.e. elk are Cervus elaphus canadensis, red deer are the nominate form Cervus elaphus.

Both animals are forms of the species Cervus elaphus. If you insist on quoting a questionable internet reference, check with ultimateungulate.com. They show red deer, wapiti, American elk, etc. all as forms of Cervus elaphus...just like every serious zoological reference does. They also show the term "elk" being used to describe, in Europe, the animal which we in North America call moose...but that's a whole new can of worms.

Do some research...or don't. This has gotten tiresome.

Edited to add: Hussar, thanks for clearing this up further. I had envisioned problems based on the Latin name technicalities...I never even thought of the issues of private ownership. Another thing to worry about with this mess.
 
Well last year we had a couple of them running around the area where I hunt deer. We had one walk across the back yard, so we called the local C.O. to find out the rules. He was already called about the one we had seen and was on route to shoot it. By the time he arrived he was in the bush and we couldn't find it.
So after all that we had the discussion on what we were allowed to do legally. Our controlled hunt was the following week, and we wanted to know what to do if we saw it again. So that is were my information came from.
In the middle of the winter we did see another red deer, and in was in a subdivision. The MNR was there rather quickly and did shoot it. But I never followed up to find out any more details.
 
Hussar_ca said:
Ok, We went through this last year with the MNR in our area. In Ontario if you see Red deer you are technically required to call the MNR and give them a location. They are required to shoot them. Now the MNR also said, if they shoot the red deer they have to charge the farm owner for not reporting it.
If you shoot a red deer, you can be charge with shooting someone's livestock. Just like shooting someone's cows. They are owned by the individual. But if you shoot it and don't report it, the owner is not likely to press charges, because charges would be laid against the owner for not notifying the MNR. Its a grey area and a risk. But up to you. Just don't inform the MNR you did it. You may get away with it if your a farmer if you report it.
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You do not need to contact the MNR to shoot it yourself, you only need permission of the owner. If he says go for it then you can. The risk you run by shooting one without consent of the owner is a civil suit. The two farms here in my area that raise them have given full authority to anyone seeing them out off their property to have at them so that they are not a threat to the native wildlife and so they arent charged with them being loose.
 
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