Hunting without killing?

[roccoskeet]

Tell some #### the dart is a tranquilizer , but really has water in it and after he hits the rhino's ass watch the fun !

Now there's a sport

 

[jaydog]

In this world anything is possible , but I'm thinking BS.

- dart guns have very limited range
- proper dosage is challenging for many reasons (gunnut870s points plus more)
- I can't imagine getting a veterinarian to participate would be too easy for ethical reasons
- handling the drugs and darts is dangerous to the people involved
-accidently killing the animal could put really sour your 'green hunting' clients mood

Most importantly:
- it just doesn't feel the same as hunting

I have immobilized my share of animals and while it is cool I wouldn't bother doing it as an alternative to hunting.

 

[Mount Sweetness]

fine with me

 

[Squigs]

Sounds dumb. Good points made by gunnut870.

 

[tony d]

Hunting without killing is like ### without ejaculating

 

[MiG25]

with the rhino hunts, don't they cut off the horn to make the animal less appealing to the medicine/dagger trade?

 

[Ardent]

I think it's a good way to get money in the conservation programs.

In studies at ram mountain in our own rockies, some sheeps get druged several times in their life for studies directed by a professor I had at the university of sherbrooke, and still he considers this of negligible effect on sheep survival and reproduction, otherwise his data wouldn't be valid.

Besides, if we don't get some money in those conservation programs, rhinos and many other endangered species will disappear. We got to find a way to make them worth money without killing them, otherwise they will be killed.

Rhinos live in really poor areas of the world. People there must find money to live, and if they can't get paid as rangers, they will get money by being poachers. Just like us, they have families to feed, but unlike us, even the hard working mans can't get a work to do so.

Plus, the rich americans roaming the territory in search of a rhino to put to sleep make good rangers of themselves, and can report poaching.

I think its a damn good idea

Well said. It's perpetuating our sport in areas it died out, and most importantly benefitting rhinos for instance and making them valuable, alive. I'm all for it in cases like rhino, for deer, bear, etc here, no need we can hunt for real.

 

[Ardent]

with the rhino hunts, don't they cut off the horn to make the animal less appealing to the medicine/dagger trade?

Yes and no. I was in Zimbabwe in April, and was with Black Rhino conservationists/anti-poaching. The anti-poaching troop is finding dehorning has had little effect, as you still find the rhinos dead, the poachers shoot the dehorned rhinos just so they won't have to follow their tracks. It's utterly disgusting what's happening to the Black Rhino. The White Rhino (much more common, the 'typical' Rhino you'll see on the nature channel) is doing much better, and is the animal typically involved in these dart hunts. The Black Rhino is the better looking of the two, and frankly just my plain favourite, and if we're not careful may soon be extinct.

 

[Therion]

Tranquilizing an animal, especially with a dart gun, is not trivial.
As stated, the products used are either prescription or controlled substances, and as such, are supposed to be used only be veterinarians or under veterinary supervision (there are some allowances for other qualified eprsons).
The darts can cause considerable damage to muscles and bones.
Anesthetized animals typically lose their ability to regulate their body temperature, and can either get hypo- or hyper-thermic, according to the ambient temperature.
There is an inherent chance of harm when anesthesia is induced, and when it wears off. Also, an animal that is recovering from anesthesia, could easily be a target for other animals.
Finally, the worst scenario is to 'wind them up' before you dart them, as they may become unpredicatable and dangerous.

I don't have a lot of experience with this, but as a practicing veterinarian, I have darted a few cattle, when circumstances ditacted that this was the best option. However, it is not trivial and the consequences can be serious.

Good discussion on this topic. I had not heard of this, but frankly, not much surprises me any more.
Therion

 

[arachn'auquébec]

There sure are some risks, but here's the thing

1)5% chances the animal will suffer from a dart gun injection(that's absolute bs, I don't know the real proportion, but it is probably not much more), plus some added benefit to the population.

2)100% chances the rhino dies from a 338 lapua magnum through the lungs with a 6'' exit hole on the other side of the 5000 pounder, absolutely detrimental to the populations.

The fact that dart guns have limited range, while very true, does not mean it can't be done. Some marginals have hunted elephant with bows before...

This topic reminds me of discussions between hippies and lumberjacks. One wants to make money by cutting everything, and one is whining that it is bad for the planet.

When you propose an economically viable compromise, lumberjacks do not want to change their methods, and hippies keep crying because a compromise is not radical enough for them, they want their forests to be beautiful and worth nothing.

 

[the spank]

hunting without killing is like ### without ejaculating

hahahaha....tantric hunting??!!!

 

[jjohnwm]

There sure are some risks, but here's the thing

1)5% chances the animal will suffer from a dart gun injection(that's absolute bs, I don't know the real proportion, but it is probably not much more), plus some added benefit to the population.

2)100% chances the rhino dies from a 338 lapua magnum through the lungs with a 6'' exit hole on the other side of the 5000 pounder, absolutely detrimental to the populations.

The fact that dart guns have limited range, while very true, does not mean it can't be done. Some marginals have hunted elephant with bows before...

This topic reminds me of discussions between hippies and lumberjacks. One wants to make money by cutting everything, and one is whining that it is bad for the planet.

When you propose an economically viable compromise, lumberjacks do not want to change their methods, and hippies keep crying because a compromise is not radical enough for them, they want their forests to be beautiful and worth nothing.

Killing a rhino is not "absolutely detrimental to the populations." Sustainable hunting, of any species, is all about killing a certain number of individuals WITHOUT a detrimental impact on the species as a whole. Do you think that killing an animal is automatically bad for the species? If so, how could you ever bring yourself to hunt at all?

The ranch I hunted in Africa (120,000 hectares) had a small population of white rhinos. They were not hunted, simply bred. There was one cantankerous old male, the first that they had gotten, equipped with a huge horn, who was very near to the end of his rope as a breeder. He was being challenged by new up-and-coming males and had already sired numerous calves. Apparently they were planning to either sell him to another property (to be hunted) or allow him to be taken by a visiting hunter. The trophy fee was expected to be in excess of $40,000 US.

Shooting this animal not only posed no threat to the white rhino as a species, it was actually a benefit. Aside from the monetary aspect, rhinos are bred carefully with an eye towards maintaining genetic diversity. No single animal is allowed to sire too many offspring, to avoid immediate or future problems with inbreeding.

Personally, I wouldn't shoot a rhino even if I could afford it. This particular specimen, while a magnificent trophy and completely wild, was just about the simplest animal to stalk that I have ever seen. We crept to within 20 yards of him easily, on two different occasions. Rhinos are short-sighted and stupid. Tipping one over with an appropriate large-caliber weapon would be so simple as to be laughable, IMHO. However, there are plenty of well-heeled hunters worldwide who "need" a rhino to "complete their Big 5", and more power to 'em. They win, the local economy wins, and the rhino, as a species, wins. Even the individual hunted animal wins...it gets to die a quicker, more humane death than the vast majority of wildlife are ever afforded.

You say "BS" and dismiss the estimate of 5% mortality among darted animals. Are you qualified to make that judgment, or has it been plucked from your nether orifice? Even without the educated opinions of those with experience with sedation or anesthetization of animals, I would still be disgusted by the practice of darting animals for sport...and if I, and many other hunters, feel that way about, what happens when the anti's get their neatly-manicured little hands on a few videos depicting it?

John

 

[mmattockx]

I know, can we do this to liberals!!!!

Now THAT would be a sport. And if they don't wake up, meh.

Mark

 

[Ardent]

John, I agree with a lot if what you're saying, and have done the same in Africa being on foot just yards from Rhino. Below is an extremely endangered Zimbabwean Black Rhino.

However, Rhino darting absolutely makes sense. There are some populations that can't afford to lose a single rhino for the same genetic diversity reasons, their own genetic diversity is needed desperately. The White Rhino in RSA is actually doing quite well, and they can afford to hunt them sparsely. Darting even there still makes sense however, as through dart hunts, multiple times, a living Rhino can be worth exponentially more than a one time kill. Anything that makes living Rhino valuable, I'm for. In the end, drugged and then antidoted/woken up is better than dead, no matter how you cut it.

 

[arachn'auquébec]

You say "BS" and dismiss the estimate of 5% mortality among darted animals. Are you qualified to make that judgment, or has it been plucked from your nether orifice? Even without the educated opinions of those with experience with sedation or anesthetization of animals, I would still be disgusted by the practice of darting animals for sport...and if I, and many other hunters, feel that way about, what happens when the anti's get their neatly-manicured little hands on a few videos depicting it?

John

Surveys show that the rate of mortality directly or partially attribuable to anasthaesia is approximately 0.01%-0.05% in humans, 0.1% in dogs and cats, and 1% in horses.(Jones 2001)

Now so you don't think I plucked this from my ''nether orifice'', here is the link champ:
http://w ww.bearproject.info/uploads/publications/A%2060%20Risk%20of%20capture%20related%20mortality%20in%20large%20free%20mammals.pdf

And yes, I consider myself qualified enough to have an opinion on this, just as all of the other hunters here + a degree in ecology.

I really can't see any way the anti's would see this as worse than trophy hunting and poaching, sorry, I am not getting your point.

 

[jjohnwm]

Surveys show that the rate of mortality directly or partially attribuable to anasthaesia is approximately 0.01%-0.05% in humans, 0.1% in dogs and cats, and 1% in horses.(Jones 2001)

Arachn'auquebec: So you are using this survey in hopes of bolstering your estimate of mortality among darted animals? Give me a break! It shows human mortality at 0.01%...fine, I believe it. Mortality among dogs jumps by a factor of 10, to 0.1%. You get to horses, and you have another 10x jump, all the way to 1%. These animals are all sedated under controlled conditions. Their weight is known, as is their general level of conditioning, and yet by the time you start sedating horses under these controlled conditions you are expecting the rate of mortality to be as much as 100x that of human patients.

Now what do you suppose will happen when you start administering drugs, by means of darts, in the field, to wild animals of various species, in uncertain physical condition, and whose weights can only be estimated? Conditions are totally uncontrolled. I wonder what happens to the mortality rate then. Do you think it might go up another notch or ten? When presenting arguments, you should limit yourself to those which actually strengthen your position.

A degree in ecology makes you about as qualified to make a statement such as you did, as my electrician's license makes me qualified to design a warp-drive engine for a spaceship. How an ecologist could believe that the killing of any individual animal is "absolutely detrimental to the populations" beggars the imagination. Get over yourself.

With respect to antihunters: Many of the largest animal rights groups are vehemently opposed to sport-fishing, even if catch-and-release is practiced. They state that the premise of releasing a fish, in hopes of catching it again, is barbaric and cruel. The words "repeated torture" are bandied about. That was the apparently-too-fine point.

Ardent: I think we must agree to disagree on this. I just can't accept the idea of darting animals for sport. You might be interested in looking at a thread currently in play at Accurate Reloading on this topic. The amount of support being expressed by the very experienced African hunters there is vanishingly small.

I must admit that I didn't even think of Black Rhinos when this discussion began. White Rhinos, as you stated, have recovered to the point where limited (expensive) hunting is done. I realize that Blacks are much more endangered, so that traditional (i.e. kill) hunting is not possible. I must wonder whether the risks attendant with darting can outweigh the monetary benefits to conservation that this practice might produce.

I could possibly see more support for this idea among the elite of the hunting world if it was handled the way that most PAC hunts are done now. PAC hunts generally aren't sold ahead of time for most species, as it is impossible to know if, when, or how many PAC animals may be available at any point in time. If a sport hunter happens to be there, or can get there on extremely short notice, then he can take advantage of a PAC permit...otherwise, no.

If rhino dart hunts were limited to occasions when the rhino must be anesthetized for some other purpose, i.e. medical examination, or perhaps relocation, then I think that many people would be less averse to the idea.

John

 

[arachn'auquébec]

Arachn'auquebec: So you are using this survey in hopes of bolstering your estimate of mortality among darted animals? Give me a break! It shows human mortality at 0.01%...fine, I believe it. Mortality among dogs jumps by a factor of 10, to 0.1%. You get to horses, and you have another 10x jump, all the way to 1%. These animals are all sedated under controlled conditions. Their weight is known, as is their general level of conditioning, and yet by the time you start sedating horses under these controlled conditions you are expecting the rate of mortality to be as much as 100x that of human patients.

Now what do you suppose will happen when you start administering drugs, by means of darts, in the field, to wild animals of various species, in uncertain physical condition, and whose weights can only be estimated? Conditions are totally uncontrolled. I wonder what happens to the mortality rate then. Do you think it might go up another notch or ten? When presenting arguments, you should limit yourself to those which actually strengthen your position.

A degree in ecology makes you about as qualified to make a statement such as you did, as my electrician's license makes me qualified to design a warp-drive engine for a spaceship. How an ecologist could believe that the killing of any individual animal is "absolutely detrimental to the populations" beggars the imagination. Get over yourself.

With respect to antihunters: Many of the largest animal rights groups are vehemently opposed to sport-fishing, even if catch-and-release is practiced. They state that the premise of releasing a fish, in hopes of catching it again, is barbaric and cruel. The words "repeated torture" are bandied about. That was the apparently-too-fine point.

Ardent: I think we must agree to disagree on this. I just can't accept the idea of darting animals for sport. You might be interested in looking at a thread currently in play at Accurate Reloading on this topic. The amount of support being expressed by the very experienced African hunters there is vanishingly small.

I must admit that I didn't even think of Black Rhinos when this discussion began. White Rhinos, as you stated, have recovered to the point where limited (expensive) hunting is done. I realize that Blacks are much more endangered, so that traditional (i.e. kill) hunting is not possible. I must wonder whether the risks attendant with darting can outweigh the monetary benefits to conservation that this practice might produce.

I could possibly see more support for this idea among the elite of the hunting world if it was handled the way that most PAC hunts are done now. PAC hunts generally aren't sold ahead of time for most species, as it is impossible to know if, when, or how many PAC animals may be available at any point in time. If a sport hunter happens to be there, or can get there on extremely short notice, then he can take advantage of a PAC permit...otherwise, no.

If rhino dart hunts were limited to occasions when the rhino must be anesthetized for some other purpose, i.e. medical examination, or perhaps relocation, then I think that many people would be less averse to the idea.

John

Please read the link I provided before you start saying all kinds of things you don't know anything about.

You seem to be very upset about the statement I made about how killing only one individual is detrimental to the population.

We are talking about endangered species here. I'm sorry if you did not read(again) and thought I was talking about whitetail. Legal conventional hunting involves healthy populations in growth in wich you can collect a sustainable amount of individuals to keep the growht down to a stable level.

In endangered populations like the black rhino, sustainable yield is 0. That's it.

In any case, I am absolutely not saying dart hunt is free of risks. It is a compromise that can be a useful tool to get money into conservation programs.

Get over myself? you asked if I had any qualification to talk about this, well, I do have a degree ecology... And I provided scientific evidence(wich you obviously did not read), to support my ideas.



Did you really compare the black rhinos to fish?

 

[gunnut870]

I have not been able to find statistics on the mortality of darted wild rhinos, but the 2 articles below give a good idea that it is NOT a benign procedure. The drugged animals have great difficulty breathing and I very much doubt that every dart-hunter carries the equipment to ventilate, administer oxygen and monitor heart rate, respiration and blood pressure, let alone has the knowledge how to use them.

Based on my personal experiences with various species of deer, wallabies, monkeys, escaped cows and one Siberian tiger I would guess mortality in rhinos is considerably higher than horses. And yes, I am a veterinarian and I anesthetize animals for a living.



J S Afr Vet Assoc. 2004 Jun;75(2):79-84.
Severe hypoxaemia in field-anaesthetised white rhinoceros (Ceratotherium simum) and effects of using tracheal insufflation of oxygen.

Bush M, Raath JP, Grobler D, Klein L.
Conservation and Research Center, Smithsonian National Zoological Park, 1500 Remount Road, Front Royal, Virginia 22630, USA. mbush@crc.si.edu
Abstract

White rhinoceros anaesthetised with etorphine and azaperone combination develop adverse physiological changes including hypoxia, hypercapnia, acidosis, tachycardia and hypertension. These changes are more marked in field-anaesthetised rhinoceros. This study was designed to develop a technique to improve safety for field-anaesthetised white rhinoceros by tracheal intubation and oxygen insufflation. Twenty-five free-ranging white rhinoceros were anaesthetised with an etorphine and azaperone combination for translocation or placing microchips in their horns. Once anaesthetised the rhinoceros were monitored prior to crating for transportation or during microchip placement. Physiological measurements included heart and respiratory rate, blood pressure and arterial blood gas samples. Eighteen rhinoceros were intubated using an equine nasogastric tube passed nasally into the trachea and monitored before and after tracheal insufflation with oxygen. Seven rhinoceros were not intubated or insufflated with oxygen and served as controls. All anaesthetised rhinoceros were initially hypoxaemic (percentage arterial haemoglobin oxygen saturation (%O2Sa) = 49% +/- 16 (mean +/- SD) and PaO2 = 4.666 +/- 1.200 kPa (35 +/- 9 mm Hg)), hypercapnic (PaCO2 = 8.265 +/- 1.600 kPa (62 +/- 12 mm Hg)) and acidaemic (pHa = 7.171 +/- 0.073 ). Base excess was -6.7 +/- 3.9 mmol/l, indicating a mild to moderate metabolic acidosis. The rhinoceros were also hypertensive (systolic blood pressure = 21.861 +/- 5.465 kPa (164 +/- 41 mm Hg)) and tachycardic (HR = 107 +/- 31/min). Following nasal tracheal intubation and insufflation, the %O2Sa and PaO2 increased while blood pHa and PaCO2 remained unchanged. Tracheal intubation via the nose is not difficult, and when oxygen is insufflated, the PaO2 and the %O2Sa increases, markedly improving the safety of anaesthesia, but this technique does not correct the hypercapnoea or acidosis. After regaining their feet following reversal of the anaesthesia, the animals' blood gas values return towards normality.

PMID: 15456163 [PubMed - indexed for MEDLINE]
Overdose during chemical restraint in a black rhinoceros (Diceros bicornis).

Adams WA, Robinson KJ, Jones RS, Edwards GB.
Department of Anaesthesia, University Clinical Department, Liverpool, UK. wendy.adams5@hotmail.com
Abstract

A juvenile female black rhinoceros (Diceros bicornis) was successfully treated after overdose of drugs used for chemical restraint. Subsequent general anaesthesia for surgical reduction of a recurrent rectal prolapse was uneventful. Over a 25-minute period before transportation to the veterinary hospital, the animal received a total dose of 1.225 mg etorphine, 30 mg acepromazine and 30 mg detomidine. Based on an estimated mass of 200 kg, these corresponded to doses of 6.1 microg kg(-1) etorphine, 150 microg kg(-1) acepromazine, and 150 microg kg(-1) detomidine which constitutes considerable overdose for each drug given separately, notwithstanding the synergy that probably resulted when the three drugs were present concurrently. The estimated body mass may have substantially overestimated the actual body mass and exacerbated overdosage. The animal was recumbent and apnoeic on arrival at the hospital. Heart sounds were auscultated and a weak peripheral pulse was palpated; no pulse deficits were detected, although the heart rate was low. The trachea was intubated, inspired breath was enriched with oxygen and the lungs ventilated manually. Diprenorphine (1.5 mg) was given intravenously and spontaneous breathing resumed 11 minutes later. After induction of general anaesthesia using isoflurane, emergency surgery for correction of rectal prolapse was performed, from which the animal recovered uneventfully. The case highlights some of the practical problems that may be encountered in dealing with dangerous and unfamiliar species.

 

[Ardent]

Did you really compare the black rhinos to fish?

Come on, I don't agree with John 100%, but he's still making sense and I don't believe he was talking about Black Rhino. I wouldn't try and swing Black Rhino on him like that, as I took him as pretty clearly discussing White Rhino in RSA. They're doing pretty well, as far as Rhinos go, and I brought up Black Rhino as another facet, not the main issue.

We have a vet in this thread saying darting's likely not a good idea, enough to make me consider it. However, everything I've seen about bow dart hunting has involved a vet standing by, and I see the risks of the animal suffering from a poor shot with a real bullet in a normal hunt, and running off as far higher. The alternative to dart hunts isn't just they graze along merrily, it's dead. Since hunting is fatal (not against this, I hunt extensively, including Africa), drugging's risks look pretty minimal to me.

 

[Until the Angels Fall]

They do that with Rhino in Africa.

I've seen that before...but I believe it was donew ith a bow...it also looked like the arrow couldn't fly stright for #### or very far with the traq on it. Coud have just been an odd video/angle tho...