Hunting without PAL

[Bustercluck]

Looking at the firearms act it doesn't say anything about 1 pal 1 firearm under the lending section. For me it makes more sense for a person to be trained under immediate supervision before they take the pal course.

 

[0357]

Remember the good days in alberta when we had a premier with balls that gave conservation officers strick rules not to enforce federal firearms laws?
During that whole long gun registration debacle.
We need another klein

I have never heard of this one firearm per p.a.l rule?
Or know anyone to follow such a rule.
By that logic you could only take one gun to the range at a time.
It could be some assbackward provincial rule of sorts in some juristictions I suppose.

 

[greywolf67nt]

There is no 1 PAL one gun law BUT the law does say those without a PAL must be "under immediate supervision" which if you are not RIGHT THERE you are not supervising. It is so that if they go to do something stupid you aren't preoccupied.

It really doesn't matter what the COs enforce it is still illegal.

 

[45ACPKING]

I spoke to the RCMP before my Son received his PAL. They said if he did not receive his PAL by rifle season, he could not carry a rifle. You must have a PAL to carry a rifle. One between the two of us.

i mean no offense when i say this but..... I'm thinkin you got bullsh*tted by an officer that knows diddly is my thinking.

 

[45ACPKING]

There is no 1 PAL one gun law BUT the law does say those without a PAL must be "under immediate supervision" which if you are not RIGHT THERE you are not supervising. It is so that if they go to do something stupid you aren't preoccupied.

It really doesn't matter what the COs enforce it is still illegal.

you are wrong , I'd put 100 cash on it right now.
Prove it to me , in front of everyone here...with the contact info of the official source that says it is illegal and I will emt you 100 cash.
I'm dead serious.

scenario is I'm deer hunting in the stand or ground blind with my Non PAL holding friend who has his hunting license and he has a rifle I lent him and I have my rifle.
you find me an official source that says that is illegal under the firearms act.

 

[Scamaniac]

Not to hijack this thread,but,It's not true in any other Ontario WMU either. Archery may be used during all Deer gun seasons. Blaze orange is required by everyone during all gun seasons for Deer,Elk,Moose and licensed Black Bear hunters (except when in a tree stand).

Possession of a firearm without a PAL/RPAL is a criminal offense no matter which way you spin it. You may hunt with your relative with one firearm between you AND he must be within close proximity (defined as arms length in established case law).

You really need to brush up on your Ontario hunting regulations before posting.

 

[Trimmer 905]

Would not want to be toting a bow in next weeks Ontario Controlled gun hunts. Would end nothing but badly as bow season is closed for the two or three controlled hunts, depending on area and always has been.

Yep,I should have been more specific and excluded the 4 and 5 day "controlled hunts" in south western Ontario. As for the rest of the province's gun hunts,bows may be used.

 

[flashman2]

I am not sure where I came to my understanding of the rules

Always a good start.

but I'm pretty sure

A phrase defence lawyers have built vacation homes upon.

"direct supervision" means staying close together while hunting. Meaning close enough to easily communicate and be within immediate vicinity of eye contact.

Nnnnnnnnope. What does that even mean? Not in eye contact but within the immediate vicinity of it? How is being in the immediate vicinity of eye contact defined in case law?

No different than standing behind the firing line at the range when a non PAL holder steps up to shoot a rifle on the bench.

Ya, a lot different. Close enough to easily communicate and within immediate vicinity of eye contact may, but does not necessarily = standing behind.



It's not only the FA you have to worry about, that's the least of it. Unauthorized possession and transfer falls under the Criminal Code. Much worse.

 

[flashman2]

you are wrong , I'd put 100 cash on it right now.
Prove it to me , in front of everyone here...with the contact info of the official source that says it is illegal and I will emt you 100 cash.
I'm dead serious.

scenario is I'm deer hunting in the stand or ground blind with my Non PAL holding friend who has his hunting license and he has a rifle I lent him and I have my rifle.
you find me an official source that says that is illegal under the firearms act.

Ok big balls, calm down... deep breath.
Big difference between legislation, regulation, jurisprudence and officer discretion. You're assuming only the first two have relevance. That's not accurate.

FWIW, it sounds a lot like you're constructing an example greyeolf explicitly said is legal. In the same blind or in the same stand = direct and immediate supervision.

 

[260SnowBird]

you are wrong , I'd put 100 cash on it right now.
Prove it to me , in front of everyone here...with the contact info of the official source that says it is illegal and I will emt you 100 cash.
I'm dead serious.

scenario is I'm deer hunting in the stand or ground blind with my Non PAL holding friend who has his hunting license and he has a rifle I lent him and I have my rifle.
you find me an official source that says that is illegal under the firearms act.

Flashman2 is right, 45ACPKING you described a scenario in which greywolf67nt stated it is legal, (which it is pending provincial hunting regulations) as being in the same ground blind would be direct supervision.

If I may I have some light to shed on this subject, We all agree we are regulated under two bodies of government with the Ops question. Federal for Firearm, and Provincial for hunting, since I am from Ontario I'll explain our process so it may shed light on the need for folks here to check with thier provincial laws who reside elswear. In Ontario there are effectively 4 different types of hunting licence one could have: H1,H2 A1 and A2. Pending on the persons type of licence they hold we are taking out hunting with us will dictate what the lawful firearm possesion is.
For H1 and H2:

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You can see in black and white, (well red I guess but you know what I am getting at) that the province passes up the liability to a federal law, therefore for H1 we look at and consult the federal law here:

[/URL][/IMG]

As you can clearly see, you may lend/borrow a firearms as governed in Canada under the above conditions. Therefore in Ontario one with an H1 Provincially issued Hunting licence you could have 2 firearms in the same ground blind if you are taking someone out with that H1 licence.
Now, let's look at the A (apprenticeship) class licence,

[/URL][/IMG]

Here it clearly states that on top of direct supervision the person tagging along with a A1 licence Must share 1 firearm between the two. (Do I qualify for the 100 bucks here?) And to be more clear a firearm under these regulations also includes cross bows, compound/recurve bows.

Hope this helps and sheds light on the subject!

 

[rhino519]

Not to hijack this thread,but,It's not true in any other Ontario WMU either. Archery may be used during all Deer gun seasons. Blaze orange is required by everyone during all gun seasons for Deer,Elk,Moose and licensed Black Bear hunters (except when in a tree stand).

Possession of a firearm without a PAL/RPAL is a criminal offense no matter which way you spin it. You may hunt with your relative with one firearm between you AND he must be within close proximity (defined as arms length in established case law).

had to go and look at the regs to make sure i’ve been doing things right over years, i’ll admit there is only three wmu that i hunt and in those three bow season is closed during rifle season, there are wmu that have archery running during gun season but those are limited to only muzzle loaders and shutguns, no rifles

This is not true in area 65.

yes, you are right, but there are no rifles allowed in wmu 65

 

[45ACPKING]

Ok big balls, calm down... deep breath.
Big difference between legislation, regulation, jurisprudence and officer discretion. You're assuming only the first two have relevance. That's not accurate.

FWIW, it sounds a lot like you're constructing an example greyeolf explicitly said is legal. In the same blind or in the same stand = direct and immediate supervision.

not trying to be a #### guys so I apologize if I came across that way .... maybe ontario has some different rules..... and I don't take rcmp bulletins as the gospel..... they post the wrong stuff too.... aren't they in trouble for that right now in fact? Contempt of parliament over an rcmp bulletin pertaining to the firearms act? damn rights they are.

I read those posts and to me it seems these guys here are saying there is no way to "directly supervise" a non pal holder with a firearm in the field so it's illegal..... and I say bullsh*te.
I am talking in general and not singling out special seasons or WMU restrictions in ontario.

 

[stubblejumper]

My experience at least in Alberta is that I wouldn’t worry about it. For some reason the CO’s aren’t interested in your PAL. It’s pretty much just about your paper license and that’s it.

That is fine, until you encounter a joint RCMP/F&W check stop, the RCMP will ask you to produce a PAL, and they will seize firearms, if a PAL can't be produced. But if there is a PAL holder in the vehicle, you are fine. As to direct supervision, the person with the PAL, must be close enough to instantly take control of the firearm, across a field won't work. Now if your application for renewal shows as being in the system, you may be fine.

 

[45ACPKING]

from the Province of BC Resident Hunting regulations, scroll down to Firearms Regulations, it's half way down the page.
https://www2.gov.bc.ca/gov/content/...n/fishing-hunting/hunting/bc-resident-hunting

I think maybe as I get older, I get more and more frustrated with the firearms community and it has changed the way I post...... it is what it is.
I see the firearms community ducking thier heads wondering if this is legal, or that is legal and so many err on the side of caution instead of using thier privledge to it's maximum. Maybe better put, it's like a 100 cars on the highway travelling in a group with a speed limit of 100K and you have 5% of the drivers doing 90...... just to err on the side of caution so they don't get a speeding ticket. Whereas my thinking is.... if it says I can do 100...... I'm setting the cruise control at 100. I view and practice my firearms ownership exactly the same way I drive. Simple explanation I know but it's the best way I can express how my frustration with the "5% doing 90" that has turned me into a bit of an azzhole on the forums

but..... I have an exemplary driving record LOL and never been charged for a firearms or hunting infraction

 

[memaquay]

I phoned the MNR information line in Ontario a couple of years ago, and they stated one pal between two hunters, then only one gun. When I asked them where that rule came from, they said the federal firearms laws. Personally, I don't interpret the close proximity thing as meaning only one gun.

What I would like to know is if anyone in Ontario has ever been charged and convicted for one pal, two guns.

 

[rhino519]

I phoned the MNR information line in Ontario a couple of years ago, and they stated one pal between two hunters, then only one gun. When I asked them where that rule came from, they said the federal firearms laws. Personally, I don't interpret the close proximity thing as meaning only one gun.

What I would like to know is if anyone in Ontario has ever been charged and convicted for one pal, two guns.

i don’t know if anyone was charged, one think i can say is i hunt with an opp officer, we have friends that don’t hunt but like outdoors and would like to come with us up north on moose camp and deer hunts but he’s relentless in saying it won’t happen till a person gets a PAL and hunting license, we don’t want people getting charged unnecessarily, since we always have more guns then hunters, and waist their time in courts trying to justify their presence in our party

 

[fallen75]

...

 

[45ACPKING]

under the Firearms Act.....loaning a firearm to someone with a hunting license but no PAL "for the purpose of hunting" is legal period. A holder of a hunting license is using the borrowed firearm for a "lawful purpose" , so long as the borrower is under the lenders supervision.

there's no interpretation to make here , it's pretty cut and dry.

I get some types of licenses in some provinces may include further restrictions but in BC there are no such restrictions in the wildlife act according to the government of BC's website.
I routinely hunt with a couple folks who do not have PAL's and lend them firearms and also did so when my wife only had her hunting license but her RPAL was still in process. I myself hunted for 2 years before having my firearms license in the early years of C68 coming into force

so the answer to the threads title "Hunting without a PAL" is Yes, you can , as long as your follow section B of the lending portion of the firearms act AND abide by the regulations pertaining to hunting with firearms in your individual province/jurisdiction.

there's no grey area there and no lawyer needed to understand it.

 

[lbo]

Hi, looking to go out deer hunting this year with my father, do i need to have a pal or is his good enough as long as we are in close proximity?
I reapplied for my PAL/last one expired recently, so doubt i will have it back in time.

goodluck i hope you and your dad have a great hunting season lbo

 

[Sidearm Sambo]

wouldnt work in ontario, archery season is closed during gun season, is alberta different?

I believe you are permitted to hunt with a bow during rifle season, however you must wear blaze orange.