HW70 or the Tempest?

MattieRoss

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I've been having a lot of trouble deciding which air pistol to buy and plink with this fall. I've watched reviews, and read all I can.

Can any of you share your experience? Who here has owned either a Weihrauch HW70 or a Webley Tempest (either .22 or .177)? Pictures welcome, especially of targets! Accuracy matters, but which pistol is more fun?

Is there a 'wildcard' I'm not considering that I should? :)
 
I've never shot the HW70, but I have shot a few Tempests. Both .177" and .22". Have to say I find the larger bore to be a more satisfying plinker. Though the pellets move more slowly, the whack of a .22" wadcutter into an aluminum can is just so much more violent than with a .177" pellet. If I were worried about longer range shooting with a Tempest I'd go with a .177" as the trajectory would be flatter, easier to estimate holdover out to maybe 30 yards. But these are not precision airguns. Though I've read the odd report from shooters (especially in the UK) who claim to shoot sub-1" groups at 10 metres, the best I've been able to manage was about 1.5" on a particularly good day. I've shot over 550/600 in several air pistol competitions, using a Pardini K12, so while no master, I am a fairly good shot with a pistol in one hand. But with the Tempest my average is closer to 2" groups at that distance. The thing just jumps too weirdly, and I've never been able to master whatever it is one needs to do in order to tame that forward-and-down motion which happens while the pellet is still in the bore. I've filled it at 300 frames per second and analyzed the frames, so yes, I have proof. It's a weird kind of recoil. So couple of British fans have told me the correct manner with which to shoot a Tempest is a two-handed trip with a medium strong hold. I can't bring myself to enjoy that style, but perhaps they're right.

Anyway, I really like the Webley pistols, but more for their aesthetic. I especially enjoy the look and feel of the older models. Excellent bluing, really nice design work, a rock solid feel with all that cast iron. My favourite inaccurate plinker of the bunch is the Senior in .22", followed closely by the Junior in .177" which has terrible accuracy but is really tiny and pocketable, then lastly the Tempest. The Tempest is just a bit too bulky for me to feel it's a convenient pocket pistol. And the plastic and aluminum don't offer the same appeal as its all metal ancestors. The HW looks significantly larger, so it doesn't appeal for the same reason, but of course everyone has different tastes. BB Pelletier wrote a four part reviewing the HW70 a few years back for pyramid. Might be worth looking into that. Here's part 4, which includes links to the first three parts:
http://www.pyramydair.com/blog/2013/04/beeman-hw-70a-air-pistol-part-4/
 
I read that review before posting, and it seems to lack a conclusion, although it's full of great details. The Webley junior looks adorable! I wish they made all metal pistols like that still. I was set on the HW70 before because I wanted something with the famous Weihrauch rifle quality, but I read some comments and discovered that quality control may not be as great as it should be for $300. Also I read that the stocks may crack, and in our winters, I'm wondering if temperature will aggravate this. Thank you for all your great details, especially regarding the strange recoil. I don't know if that would be fun to deal with. I agree that .22s (pellets or .22LR) are very fun to plink with!
 
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I have no experience with either but have considered both on your list.
I recently got excited about the FAS 6004 but @ $465 is over your budget. Canadian Airgun Forum store sells them and it may be your "wildcard"....
 
I've had my Tempest for about 35 years and have used it quite a lot. When I first got it I could easily hit beer bottle caps at about 7 metres but now my eyes don't behave so I only use it for closer or larger targets. It still gets used frequently. Last fall was the first time we had mice in our hunt camp and the Webly took care of business. A tally of 4 beasts with 6 shots. I needed the extra because one of the beasts would not stand still so I had to take a couple of running shots. ( LEAD MAN LEAD! ). Great pistol, I'd buy another if I lost this one. I'd like to install new seals but not sure where to get them. The sights are very good and fully adjustable. I couldn't count how many 1000's of pellets that have gone down the bore.
 
I got my 1950's Webley Junior from Mr Marvin - http://airgunoldies.com/ - who is easy to deal with and honest, with a great reputation. The pistol was a bargain at $125, but with that price needed to come apart for some cleaning and a new mainspring and seal on the piston and at the breech. I expected that. For a Junior in good cosmetic shape and shooting well I'd expect double that price. Mine has lots of gentle wear. Here's that one with my similar vintage Senior.

webleys.jpg


And these are clips taken from the 300 frame per second video I shot of the Junior and the Tempest, showing the moment the trigger is pulled and the flash of the pellets after the guns have jumped forward and down.

Webley_Junior_300fps.gif


Webley_Tempest_300fps.gif


I agree, the HW70 review seems incomplete. I've seen that in a few of his reviews, seems something of a theme, as though he doesn't want to commit. But at least he provides a lot of good information. Very helpful guy when I emailed him once about an obscure pistol in need of repair.

If accuracy is a priority there isn't a lot for $300 or less, in terms of self-sufficient airguns anyway. Doubt you'd be able to find a Feinwerkbau at that price. More like $600 and up in usable condition, and often needing a replacement seal kit as many of the earlier seals are breaking down into mush. Any match pistol from days gone buy is going to be great as a plinker, obviously, but they're still in fairly high demand among collectors and also some match shooters who miss the style of the old guys. The Pardini K58 for example, a brilliant single stroke pneumatic pistol. Not high powered, typically around 400fps with a 7gr .177" pellet, but dead accurate and easy to use, besides being good looking. The cheapest newly made match grade pistol you're likely to find would be the Daisy 747 Triumph. Match grade is being stretched a little here, as it's not really in the same league as the stuff used in formal competitions, but it is widely used in clubs as a starting pistol for junior shooters to use before they buy their first Hammerli or whatever. Pretty close to recoilless, heavy but fairly solidly built, and accurate to a degree the Webleys and the HW70 will never achieve. Also within your budget:
https://www.dlairgun.com/Air-Pistols/Daisy/017_747_Triumph.html

The barrels on the Crosmans can be pretty good. My brother's 1377 for example. Thing is almost match grade, can hit anything it aims at almost too easily. I was so amazed by it when he got the thing in 1989 that I made really nice wood furniture for it, as the plastic seems an insult to such a barrel. I've got it back again now to upgrade the piston, going to make a flat top and flatten the valve body face and do some other tweaks along with getting a steel breech for it. Any of the Crosmans can be pretty darn accurate, though the odd one gets a dud barrel. But then you're either pumping a bunch for every shot or stuffing CO2 into the thing often. Or going down the rabbit hole... converting to HPA. I probably put over 100 hours and $500 into my son's 2240 carbine. It's a great little shooter, but kind of a silly thing to do, putting a HiPAC, Lane regulator, plenum gauge, and Bug Buster 6x scope on a $100 gun, along with the endless custom tweaks.

If you don't mind pumping, a 1377 is probably the best value for a self-sufficient plinker with decent accuracy. Here's my little brother's, with some koa wood a friend brought back from Hawai'i as a gift earlier the same year. I scolded her for buying koa wood... but her defence was that it had been in use as a cutting board for years at a kiosk selling fresh fruit drinks, and she'd spent the better part of an hour convincing the vendor that it was such a beautiful piece of wood she just had to give it to her violinmaker friend in Vancouver. She was right, it was wasted as a cutting board. And I've gotten a few nice objects out of it, still have a couple of small pieces in my scrap bin for use some day in little carvings.

1377_with_koa.jpg
 
Why not look at the HW-40, or it's Chinese cousin the Beeman P17? The P17 is an amazing gun for the money. The HW-40 has a slightly better trigger and overall finish, but for the price difference I would still go for the P17.
 
I was considering the Daisy until I noticed it's almost entirely plastic. That 1377 is a beauty, that looks like a great piece of wood, I love the grips/stocks people make for the 2240/1377 Pistols. My original attraction to the Webley and the HW70 was the idea of not relying on Co2 (cold weather). The 1377 or the .22 version are so inexpensive, maybe I should get one, but I'd rather not buy into something I will have to upgrade. Also, it seems it would get tiring to pump constantly! Those clips are helpful thank you, the recoil looks like it would require a lot of attention to group well. I'm still on the fence! I'd like to see if anyone else has a real hands on with the HW70.
 
Accuracy is important?
- Get a FWB65 or something similar

For plinking, I've had good luck with my Webley Hurricane (like the Tempest, but with a longer barrel)
I went with .177
- Cheaper pellets
- Minute od pop cans, golf ball, old apples accurate...

The FWB65 looks beautiful, but I don't know where I'd find a new one? I imagine they are very expensive as well, but may be worth it.
 
If any new FWB 65 pistols exist they're in collections or museums. That pistol has been out of production since the 1980's. But many were made, and a lot of those were well looked after, so they come up now and then in shooting forums for sale. Usually targettalk's used pistol section is a good place to keep an eye on. Or any airgun site really. Pricing ranges from about $450 to $750 depending on condition.

Another target pistol worth looking for is the Baikal 46m. Heavy-ish, but amazingly accurate and recoilless. I loved mine, but modded it extensively to bring the weight down, then moved on to a Pardini for competition. The 46m went to my brother, as he'd wanted it for a long while. Brilliant piece of Russian craftsmanship. They come up used for between $350 and $500, and until a couple of years ago could be bought new for $500.
 
You think the HW70 looks good? To each their own I guess.
The HW40/P17 has no recoil, takes one pump and shoots around 400fps. For the price of a P17 (around $50-60) it's worth trying out. You can't beat the P17 for the money.
 
You think the HW70 looks good? To each their own I guess.
The HW40/P17 has no recoil, takes one pump and shoots around 400fps. For the price of a P17 (around $50-60) it's worth trying out. You can't beat the P17 for the money.

I see your point, I sort of do, with a wood stock it may look very nice. It looks utilitarian certainly... like a Baikal, but nicer!
 
You may like the Diana LP 8, you can find it for just under $400 in Canada, it's fairly accurate and quite fun to shoot, i had it in .22 but i'm not sure they import it in anything but .177 now
i also have a P17, a 747, a1322 and a 46M, the Baikal is my favourite.
 
I've owned a Webley Junior (in.177), several Premiers and one each of the Tempest and Hurricane (all in .22). These things, to me, are the Harleys of the airpistol world. Very cool, loads of unique style and just a ton of fun. I never found any of them particularly accurate, but still enjoyed using them. I also had one HW70 (.177) for many years; well-made, smooth-shooting, literally twice as accurate as the best of the Webleys...and totally lacking in any kind of personality. It was about as much fun to use as a stapler.

Currently have a HW40 and I think it is terrific; accurate, smooth, easy to scope if that's your preference, and probably (for me, at least...) the best ergonomics of any handgun I have ever used, air or powder.

I've also had a couple of FWB65's; incredible accuracy, but just no soul. Super accurate, precision-made, over-engineered Teutonic staplers.
 
I've owned a Webley Junior (in.177), several Premiers and one each of the Tempest and Hurricane (all in .22). These things, to me, are the Harleys of the airpistol world. Very cool, loads of unique style and just a ton of fun. I never found any of them particularly accurate, but still enjoyed using them. I also had one HW70 (.177) for many years; well-made, smooth-shooting, literally twice as accurate as the best of the Webleys...and totally lacking in any kind of personality. It was about as much fun to use as a stapler.

Currently have a HW40 and I think it is terrific; accurate, smooth, easy to scope if that's your preference, and probably (for me, at least...) the best ergonomics of any handgun I have ever used, air or powder.

I've also had a couple of FWB65's; incredible accuracy, but just no soul. Super accurate, precision-made, over-engineered Teutonic staplers.

I'd rather avoid 'staplers'. Shooting sports should be fun! I have so much to think about, the 1322 has slowly become interesting, but the pumping seems exhausting, especially when plinking.
 
The 1322 pumping thing will definitely be annoying for most shooters, though the odd person doesn't find it so. If you go down this road I'd recommend looking into replacing the valve with a modded one or modifying the stock one to a flat face, and getting or making a flat topped piston. The improvement, when properly adjusted, is the difference between finding 3 pumps deliver a satisfying shot and having to pump 5 or 6 times for the same velocity. Some folks push the other end of it, going to 10 or even many more pumps... I don't really see the point of that as the hardware isn't designed for that kind of load, sooner or later the cocking linkage will fail and need replacing. But if a couple of custom parts and a bit of adjusting of the piston position gets you a more efficient pump towards fewer strokes per shot that seems like good value to me. And the parts cost will still keep you under budget.
 
Good idea, I should mention I already have the 2240, but don't like the idea of Co2 being so inconsistent in the winter. I messaged a club a few days ago and I think I'll save up for a Feinwerkbau after finding out that's what they shoot. They look incredible! For plinking I'll see when someone has a Webley .22 in stock.
 
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