I don't understand the "Glock Advantage"...

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If you can guarantee you will never make a mistake while holding a gun, you are able to predict your capabilities with far greater certainty than I can and I don't feel that I am in any position to discuss much with you, because I fundamentally lack the ability to function on that level of guaranteed perfection. I just don't believe that I can guarantee that I will never make a mistake with a gun, and that's just my own cross to bear. On the plus side, things like the four fundamental firearms safety rules were designed to help people like me function with guns, even at my sub-perfect level.

Personally my draw times are no different on a Glock than on a 1911, because I sweep the safety during the drawstroke. There is no time lost for me. If you do things sequentially rather than simultaneously, I can see how it would slow you down. Personally I'd just switch to doing it during the drawstroke, but we've all got our methods.
 
Avenida said:
Whether you train with your gun or not, having extra features and levers are a disadvantage when things GO WRONG. Shooting old fart style at the range, it does not matter, you will not see a difference. If levers and extra parts would not make a difference, LE agencies would be using revolvers.

Close your eyes for a second and think you are a police officer, you are in gun fight/bank robbery/ whatever. You gun malfunctions, at this point in time, having a safety will require you to check another part in the firearm, that after you rack the slide to chamber another round, most likely you will go and feel that the safety is switched off, this, will take an extra few seconds or less, all will depend on your speed and training, and a (few) extra second(s) can cost you your life.

Simplicity is an advantage when your heart rate is up, adrenalin rushing through your veins. Every decision you make takes a milisecond but feels like an eternity. Less is more.

I see the simplicity as a benefit in a real worst case scenario, and this is proven by how many police officers choose to carry the G option against other more classic and old designs. I have not heard of accidental discharges that includes deaths in a long time. There are a few in Youtube, although I am sure none of those include a fatality.

Now days, single action only law enforcement guns as the glock, have over 10 LBS trigger pull, this is a legal requirement and are know as NY-triggers (I think to being first implemented in New York, but do not take me on that).

I do not shoot Glock, and I doubt I will ever shoot one. I have tried them, they are fine. I like their simplicity not only in the exterior design but also how easy is to swap parts in the case something breaks. Most likely, anybody with half a brain will get the Glock working, whereas for instance, the HK LEM option of the GLOCK will take a more elaborate gunsmithing approach & tools.
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Wrong, go read a book. Glock pistols are NOT SINGLE ACTION. They are in fact double action only, more commonly referred to as SAFE DOUBLE ACTION because of the THREE INTERNAL PASSIVE SAFETIES. I'm getting real tired of uneducated people spouting bullsh*t when they clearly haven't the faintest idea what the ##### they're talking about. If you don't know, don't open your mouth.

The popularity of heavy triggers on LE guns is not "a legal requirement", it is a department policy due to said departments legal team believing such bullsh*t will somehow mitigate negligent or questionable shootings. The reality is that all shootings are deemed as unjust by the public regardless of facts or circumstances. A heavy trigger as a stop gap for proper training tells me said department is more incompetent than those who don't mandate heavy triggers.

So lets recap for all the uneducated in this thread as there seems to be plenty.

Glock pistols have THREE PASSIVE SAFETIES, ALL OF WHICH DO NOT REQUIRE YOUR COGNITIVE INPUT TO ACTIVATE OR DEACTIVATE. The "Glock advantage" is more than just the absence of an obsolete manual/active safety. The low bore axis, the minimal parts count, the weight, the magazine capacity, the finish, the positive reset on the trigger and of course the cost are all huge advantages over other designs. Regardless, you people need to stop reading and believing bullsh*t marketing slogans. Evaluate a product for what it is and what YOU WANT TO DO WITH IT.

Some in this thread get it, most don't...

yohann160 said:
This thread needs some of TDC's input. His glocky sense tingles every time it is typed into a CGN thread!
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You called sir, I answered.

TDC
 
I am human and make mistakes every day! I hope I never make one while playing 'dirty harry' at the range. I try my best.


misanthropist said:
If you can guarantee you will never make a mistake while holding a gun, you are able to predict your capabilities with far greater certainty than I can and I don't feel that I am in any position to discuss much with you, because I fundamentally lack the ability to function on that level of guaranteed perfection. I just don't believe that I can guarantee that I will never make a mistake with a gun, and that's just my own cross to bear. On the plus side, things like the four fundamental firearms safety rules were designed to help people like me function with guns, even at my sub-perfect level.

Personally my draw times are no different on a Glock than on a 1911, because I sweep the safety during the drawstroke. There is no time lost for me. If you do things sequentially rather than simultaneously, I can see how it would slow you down. Personally I'd just switch to doing it during the drawstroke, but we've all got our methods.
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Someone ban this guy. I can't stand your arrogance. Go back under the rock you came out from. lol
Capital letters, BOLD text, ITALIC letters? what is this, a lesson in Microsoft Word Office? give me a break....

Glocks (IN REAL LIFE) are not double action only, a double action only gun, has a different trigger feel and a lot heavier to pull than a 'out of factory Glock' with a 4.5LBS, so save your GLOCK bullish!t for the old fart conversation at the club house in the range.
LE agencies and security companies change the trigger pull to 10 LBS, to avoid negligent discharges, and to avoid lawsuits due to a light trigger pull that the GLOCK has from factory... Whether the action requires an extra pull/has/or is a pre cocked striker, that is just technical crap. You are the only one lickling Gaston Glock's balls and his 'double action only' marketing bull####. Shame on you.

You are being a technicist and although you are CORRECT, what we are talking about here has nothing to do with what you described: which is the way the Glock trigger functions.

Now 2 things:
1- Lose your attitude
2- go troll somewhere else.


TDC said:
Wrong, go read a book. Glock pistols are NOT SINGLE ACTION. They are in fact double action only, more commonly referred to as SAFE DOUBLE ACTION because of the THREE INTERNAL PASSIVE SAFETIES. I'm getting real tired of uneducated people spouting bullsh*t when they clearly haven't the faintest idea what the ##### they're talking about. If you don't know, don't open your mouth.

The popularity of heavy triggers on LE guns is not "a legal requirement", it is a department policy due to said departments legal team believing such bullsh*t will somehow mitigate negligent or questionable shootings. The reality is that all shootings are deemed as unjust by the public regardless of facts or circumstances. A heavy trigger as a stop gap for proper training tells me said department is more incompetent than those who don't mandate heavy triggers.

So lets recap for all the uneducated in this thread as there seems to be plenty.

Glock pistols have THREE PASSIVE SAFETIES, ALL OF WHICH DO NOT REQUIRE YOUR COGNITIVE INPUT TO ACTIVATE OR DEACTIVATE. The "Glock advantage" is more than just the absence of an obsolete manual/active safety. The low bore axis, the minimal parts count, the weight, the magazine capacity, the finish, the positive reset on the trigger and of course the cost are all huge advantages over other designs. Regardless, you people need to stop reading and believing bullsh*t marketing slogans. Evaluate a product for what it is and what YOU WANT TO DO WITH IT.

Some in this thread get it, most don't...



You called sir, I answered.

TDC
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Avenida said:
You are being a technicist and although you are CORRECT, what we are talking about here has nothing to do with what you described, which is NOT the function of a GLOCK TRIGGER.
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good point, I am kind of agree with you, the three internal glock safety are for the trigger safety, which do not bring any safety other than just above your shoulder...... self control.....
 
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I would like to add that the trigger pull in a Glock or similar, only has that pull weigh at the breaking point, that means, there is almost no resistance throughout the pull (but just a slack) until the breaking point, at this point the trigger stops until it breaks when applying the proper weight, in the Glock case 4.5 lbs. That is not what a double action trigger feels like, AT ALL. A real double action pull has a the same pull throughout the pull until it breaks (in most cases unexpectedly since there is no stop until the breaking point, again, in most cases. Some DA triggers do have a stop, or tactile stop but not all of them).
So there is that.
 
Avenida said:
Glocks (IN REAL LIFE) are not double action only, a double action only gun, has a different trigger feel...
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Oh, come on now. What does a double action trigger do? It cocks the firing mechanism, and then releases it at full ####. What does the Glock trigger do? It fully cocks the partially cocked striker, and then releases it at full ####. Claiming that the feel of pulling the trigger makes the mechanism something inherently different "in real life" is like saying that an AR-15 with a Geissele 2-stage trigger is an inherently different firearm than the same AR-15 with a milspec single stage.
 
TDC said:
Wrong, go read a book. Glock pistols are NOT SINGLE ACTION. They are in fact double action only, more commonly referred to as SAFE DOUBLE ACTION because of the THREE INTERNAL PASSIVE SAFETIES. I'm getting real tired of uneducated people spouting bullsh*t when they clearly haven't the faintest idea what the ##### they're talking about. If you don't know, don't open your mouth.

The popularity of heavy triggers on LE guns is not "a legal requirement", it is a department policy due to said departments legal team believing such bullsh*t will somehow mitigate negligent or questionable shootings. The reality is that all shootings are deemed as unjust by the public regardless of facts or circumstances. A heavy trigger as a stop gap for proper training tells me said department is more incompetent than those who don't mandate heavy triggers.

So lets recap for all the uneducated in this thread as there seems to be plenty.

Glock pistols have THREE PASSIVE SAFETIES, ALL OF WHICH DO NOT REQUIRE YOUR COGNITIVE INPUT TO ACTIVATE OR DEACTIVATE. The "Glock advantage" is more than just the absence of an obsolete manual/active safety. The low bore axis, the minimal parts count, the weight, the magazine capacity, the finish, the positive reset on the trigger and of course the cost are all huge advantages over other designs. Regardless, you people need to stop reading and believing bullsh*t marketing slogans. Evaluate a product for what it is and what YOU WANT TO DO WITH IT.

Some in this thread get it, most don't...



You called sir, I answered.

TDC
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Minus the nastiness, All of this is true. lol
 
misanthropist said:
If that's the case then there's no way to make an argument that under the stress of a gunfight you won't shoot yourself on account of the lack of an external safety on the glock. Nor would there be any way to predict your ability to make hits, which is a far more difficult task. If you can't trust yourself to engage the gun with a grip that will take the safety off, you can't trust yourself to do any of the subsequent and more difficult tasks, so give up now.

Besides which, of course, when you shoot a 1911 your thumb should be riding on top of the safety, making it very difficult to get wrong.



Trained drivers perform emergency maneuvers well mid-crash on a fairly regular basis.

Trained pilots do the same.

Repetition and training will allow people to repeat actions under stress that they can perform relaxed. HOWEVER, pilots, who train vastly more than 99.9% of shooters, still do things wrong on occasion. Obviously the things they do wrong tend not to be "grab the stick wrong" which would be the equivalent of grabbing a 1911 so poorly you can't get the safety off, but they do check the wrong gauge or make the wrong correction and crash once in a while.

That is why I like manual safeties. You can train enough to perform the basic tasks correctly every time - tasks like gripping the gun. You can't train enough to know that you will NEVER make a mistake. For this reason I like a bit of a margin of error. Is it manageable to do without? Yes. Would I rather have the option? If I could, yes, I would.
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When i was an EMT, i was in very stressful situations, you train for those situations, but you still can make mistakes. Now, the stress I faced you get used too overtime, as any seasoned EMT or Paramedic, doesn't blink twice. I would imagine any seasoned officer is still gonna get quite stressed when he gets shot at. I have never been in a gun fight and dont want to be, so i can only imagine here, those that have been there can speak to that.

However, not having an external safety to mess with, you have to be honest and say its somewhat beneficial. You just pull and shoot. When seconds count, it matters.

I can see the advantage in that. How big of an advantage I dunno, but still its an advantage.

Plenty of police organizations don't use the Glock and things go fine. So ya, its not that big of a deal, but it is a slight advantage. Plus all the other things TDC just listed are advantages.

I guess in the end the advantage or disadvantage is in the eye of the user.
 
so a double action Sig is the same a double action Glock, at least,
According to you.



Athrun[Zaft said:
Oh, come on now. What does a double action trigger do? It cocks the firing mechanism, and then releases it at full ####. What does the Glock trigger do? It fully cocks the partially cocked striker, and then releases it at full ####. Claiming that the feel of pulling the trigger makes the mechanism something inherently different "in real life" is like saying that an AR-15 with a Geissele 2-stage trigger is an inherently different firearm than the same AR-15 with a milspec single stage.
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This guys explains it pretty good.





I'll give you the technical answer first:

A double-action only is similar to a DA revolver trigger mechanism however there is no single action function. For semi-automatic pistols with a traditional hammer, the hammer will return to its decocked position after each shot. For striker-fired pistols such as the Taurus 24/7, the striker will remain in the rest position through the entire reloading cycle. This term applies mostly to semi-automatic handguns.

Pre-set hammers and strikers apply only to semi-automatic handguns. Upon firing a cartridge or loading the chamber, the hammer or striker will rest in a partially ****** position. The trigger serves the function of completing the cocking cycle and then releasing the striker or hammer. While technically two actions, it differs from a double-action trigger in that the trigger is not capable of fully cocking the striker or hammer. Glock pistols use a pre-set striker mechanism.

Pre-set triggers offer what some would consider an optimum balance of pull weight, trigger travel, safety, and consistency. Glock pioneered this trigger and many other manufacturers have followed suit. The primary disadvantage of the pre-set trigger is that pulling the trigger a second time after a failure to fire will not re-strike the primer. In normal handling of the firearm, this is not an issue; loading the gun requires that the slide be retracted, pre-setting the striker.

Now to the practical differences:

The Glock trigger is much smoother than a typical "DAO" trigger but not as smooth as a single action. The primary advantage to the Glock trigger is that it doesn't break as fast as your typical single action trigger.

With a Glock trigger you feel the pre travel then a slight build up in pressure then a clean break.
I prefer the Glock trigger to a standard DAO trigger. It feels much lighter and smoother to me.

The Glock trigger is simply another evolution of trigger development. The DAO trigger was designed to address the problem of having to learn two different trigger pulls for the same gun (Typical DA/SA trigger) The DAO allowed you to learn only one trigger pull. The primary disadvantage was the long, hard trigger pull everytime. The single action trigger was much more accurate. Glock attempted to give you the best of both worlds with their pre set trigger design. They must be doing something right as most every handgun manufacturer has put out their own version of a a pre set, striker fired pistol.

Like I said earlier, I like the trigger on a Glock. Some people don't. Anything different takes time to learn and master. I have been shooting for a long time and have shot almost everything there is out there to shoot. Because I love shooting I am always willing to try new things. When the Glock first came out I tried it. To tell the truth I didn't like it at first. The trigger was very different from anything I had shot before. To be fair though, I didn't care much for DAO triggers either. I prefered the good old single action trigger that I had come to love. It (The trigger and the Glock) grew on me though, and before I knew it, I shot that gun very well.

The best thing you can do however is to go to a gun store and handle the Glock and (with their permission) dry fire the gun a few times. I think you'll like what you feel.
Source:
NRA Life Member
Certified Handgun Instructor
 
Avenida said:
so a double action Sig is the same a double action Glock, at least,
According to you.
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Since you don't mention which SIG or Glock you're referring to, I'll use common examples of each for comparison; the P226 DAK in 9mm, and the G17 GEN4 in the same caliber.

The trigger mechanism is fundamentally the same, if that's what you're referring to. One cocks a partially pre-cocked striker, the other cocks a hammer. The operating system is very similar as well; both pistols use a tilting barrel linkless cam short recoil system. Both pistols feature a passive firing pin block safety, and both feature other individual passive safeties.

Functionally, they operate nearly identically. Are they the same? No. Do they do the same job in much the same way? Yes. Some specifics would help to answer the question, should this not be the response you're looking for.
 
Perfect.
If the Glock is as easy to shoot as DAK trigger, why are not the SIG so popular?
What about the PPQ and the pre cocked striker?

It requires a totally different skill to shoot a DAK, a DAO and DA trigger. Completely different motion.


Athrun[Zaft said:
Since you don't mention which SIG or Glock you're referring to, I'll use common examples of each for comparison; the P226 DAK in 9mm, and the G17 GEN4 in the same caliber.

The trigger mechanism is fundamentally the same, if that's what you're referring to. One cocks a partially pre-cocked striker, the other cocks a hammer. The operating system is very similar as well; both pistols use a tilting barrel linkless cam short recoil system. Both pistols feature a passive firing pin block safety, and both feature other individual passive safeties.

Functionally, they operate nearly identically. Are they the same? No. Do they do the same job in much the same way? Yes. Some specifics would help to answer the question, should this not be the response you're looking for.
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Avenida said:
Perfect.
If the Glock is as easy to shoot as DAK trigger...
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Hold up; when did preference, or ease of use, of a pistol ever become part of this discussion? We are discussing the similarities and differences of the Glock trigger to a DAO type trigger, unless I am very much mistaken.

Preference is a strange thing; different people like different things, and often for entirely different reasons. As such, making an absolute evaluation of what is 'better' than anything else is impossible, as is making any objective ultimatum on an inherently subjective issue. If we were to consider why Glocks are more popular than SIG Sauers, one must bear in mind differences in complexity, finish, ergonomics, magazine availability, takedown, aesthetics, price point, parts availability, personal bias, aftermarket part selection, company customer service and intended application of the pistol, to name a few factors.

As to the differences in skill required to manipulate a DAK, DAO, or DA(/SA?) trigger, that is a point of contention. The DAK offers functionality that a DAO does not, but should the available short reset and lighter pull be ignored, the motion is fundamentally the same between all three systems, provided the SAME pistols are being used, and of course, ignoring the transition between DA and SA, as that falls somewhat outside of the field of this discussion.
 
GunGuy34 said:
This guys explains it pretty good.[/B]
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Yea he said it well. Mind you, I carry a M&P and own a glock for personal target. If the glock wasn't such a good deal from my buddy I would own an M&P, they are also super reliable and I personally like the feel of them a bit better... Also they don't look like a kid made it out of lego lol...
 
"Glock: Butt-ugly plastic shooting appliance with the ergonomics of a caulking gun. Five-pound trigger with no external safety makes it ill-suited for its target market (cops who shoot a hundred rounds a year for qualification). Favored by gangbangers because the product name is short and rhymes with other short, rap-friendly words."

(from Marko Kloos' "Butchering a Whole Herd of Sacred Cows'. http://munchkinwrangler.wordpress.com/2008/12/02/butchering-a-whole-herd-of-holy-cows/



Glocks are okay if you can't afford a Sig, I guess...

TrolololololLol.


I really got no dog in this fight, but I find it funny how so many people mythologize their guns. Glocks do fail, you can find stovepiped Glocks, ka-boomed Glocks without too much research. Do they fail less often than other models? Sure, maybe, but I don't think we should be lighting any votive candles to it.

Also, while I agree that simplicity is great in any tool, I don't think that the external safety is the fumbling death trap that others seem to think it is. We've had a war going on for about a decade now in which most of the fighting was done by troops issued a rifle with the deadly external safety... and we don't get many horror stories about the impossibility of clicking from 'safe' to 'fire' when necessary. Training uber alles.
 
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