I don't understand the "Glock Advantage"...

[Avenida]

I don't agree with you. I do understand where you are coming from though.
To me a DA/SA is not as easy in DA as a DAO system is in a GLOCK, and when I say Glock I say THEIR version of DAO, which is very particular, is the Walther PPQ a DAO then? the striker is fully engaged. IF so, this whole conversation ends here with me being right and being the king of the world in the trigger explanation theory while TDC eats my socks...

DAO = Note that the O, means 'only', stating that the trigger has to #### the hammer/striker then firing. It theory they do the same thing, but it's how they do it that changes the way the guns are operated making the GLOCK operation a lot easier and faster.
I am attaching a video I made comparing LEM and DA/SA (same HK gun), you can see how similar it is the LEM to the single action operation in the DA/SA, please spend 10 min and watch it, please excuse when the the terminology is not correct.

In my book, the DAO Glock trigger is as easy to shoot as a SAO gun (to me). The same applies for the LEM trigger and when people ask me what it is, I say it is a single action gun, why, because it is not a DAO. Look on HK website, they do not call the LEM trigger a DAO, period. Interestingly enough is actuates exactly as the GLOCK trigger, EXACTLY the same, except of course that it has a hammer instead of striker.
HK calls this trigger system 'COMBAT TRIGGER' and not DAO like Glock does. I would not say 'it's a combat trigger' because it sounds lame, and I don't say it's a DAO because it is not, so to me, it is SAO.

I think calling the GLOCK trigger a DAO is incorrect, Also, Sig, offers a REAL DAO trigger, which is (I think) only offered in the P250(polymer gun). The 250 does not have a DAK, it has a DAO, and the pull is constant as it would be in a DA/SA gun, of course, in it's DA MODE. That is, in my book, a real DAO trigger, where the pull is constant (not a weak slack but a constant pull that requires certain resistance in order to operate).

Glock only offers a breaking point of 4.5 lbs, LEM is the same. They both have a weak slack, they stop, and they break = boom.

Here is the video where I demonstrate this while comparing LEM (v1 4.5 lbs same as Glock) vs DA/SA (12lbs/4.5 lbs):

http://youtu.be/kXb9bf5PbHE


I think this will help clear things out.

Hold up; when did preference, or ease of use, of a pistol ever become part of this discussion? We are discussing the similarities and differences of the Glock trigger to a DAO type trigger, unless I am very much mistaken.

Preference is a strange thing; different people like different things, and often for entirely different reasons. As such, making an absolute evaluation of what is 'better' than anything else is impossible, as is making any objective ultimatum on an inherently subjective issue. If we were to consider why Glocks are more popular than SIG Sauers, one must bear in mind differences in complexity, finish, ergonomics, magazine availability, takedown, aesthetics, price point, parts availability, personal bias, aftermarket part selection, company customer service and intended application of the pistol, to name a few factors.

As to the differences in skill required to manipulate a DAK, DAO, or DA(/SA?) trigger, that is a point of contention. The DAK offers functionality that a DAO does not, but should the available short reset and lighter pull be ignored, the motion is fundamentally the same between all three systems, provided the SAME pistols are being used, and of course, ignoring the transition between DA and SA, as that falls somewhat outside of the field of this discussion.

 

[Avenida]

Hey TDC,

I am real honest person myself too, with the only difference that I choose to be so without being a ####.
You should try that one day.

The nastiness is what I call honesty and was directed to no one in particular. If you don't know what you're talking about then shut your mouth. That was the message.

Tdc

 

[GunGuy34]

Manual safeties have there place, like If you wanted to just stick it down your pants lol. Wouldnt do that with a Glock. But a Beretta maybe lol.

 

[TDC]

Hey TDC,

I am real honest person myself too, with the only difference that I choose to be so without being a ####.
You should try that one day.

If you were honest you wouldn't talk about things you don't know about. The stock trigger on a glock is 5.5lbs not 4.5lbs. Any trigger that both charges and releases the striker/hammer without the ability to do either operation independently is a dao system. Stop talking, you're looking more and more like a fool.

Tdc

 

[Avenida]

Every time you show up somewhere in this forum is like this. The owner of the truth. Who cares if it is 5.5 or 4.5? it does not make a difference with what we are discussing here. Funny internet ninja man.

Sending people to read books, now telling me to shut up. Who the heck do you think you are?

I wonder if you actually know how to properly communicate with people in real life...

If you were honest you wouldn't talk about things you don't know about. The stock trigger on a glock is 5.5lbs not 4.5lbs. Any trigger that both charges and releases the striker/hammer without the ability to do either operation independently is a dao system. Stop talking, you're looking more and more like a fool.

Tdc

 

[tiriaq]

Well, this has deteriorated.

 

[tiriaq]

A request was received that this thread be reopened, because of the worthwhile technical information being posted.
Let's see if personal attacks and insults can be avoided. Contributes nothing to knowledge of Glocks if members accuse each other as being dicks and fools.

 

[NavyCuda]

When shooting under severe pressure (like on a two way range), not having a manual safety to disengage is a significant bonus. You simply aim and pull the trigger. Otherwise, I agree with keep_clear. Glocks suck.

If you make mistakes while holding a gun, for your own safety, do not hold one.
It is not about making mistakes, it is about saving time.
...
...The more training you have with your gear/platform/gun of choice the more proficient you will become. Choose your poison, I like it simple. Less is more.

...
However, not having an external safety to mess with, you have to be honest and say its somewhat beneficial. You just pull and shoot. When seconds count, it matters.
...

...
Personally my draw times are no different on a Glock than on a 1911, because I sweep the safety during the drawstroke. There is no time lost for me. If you do things sequentially rather than simultaneously, I can see how it would slow you down. Personally I'd just switch to doing it during the drawstroke, but we've all got our methods.

If that's the case then there's no way to make an argument that under the stress of a gunfight you won't shoot yourself on account of the lack of an external safety on the glock. Nor would there be any way to predict your ability to make hits, which is a far more difficult task. If you can't trust yourself to engage the gun with a grip that will take the safety off, you can't trust yourself to do any of the subsequent and more difficult tasks, so give up now.

Besides which, of course, when you shoot a 1911 your thumb should be riding on top of the safety, making it very difficult to get wrong.



Trained drivers perform emergency maneuvers well mid-crash on a fairly regular basis.

Trained pilots do the same.

Repetition and training will allow people to repeat actions under stress that they can perform relaxed. HOWEVER, pilots, who train vastly more than 99.9% of shooters, still do things wrong on occasion. Obviously the things they do wrong tend not to be "grab the stick wrong" which would be the equivalent of grabbing a 1911 so poorly you can't get the safety off, but they do check the wrong gauge or make the wrong correction and crash once in a while.

That is why I like manual safeties. You can train enough to perform the basic tasks correctly every time - tasks like gripping the gun. You can't train enough to know that you will NEVER make a mistake. For this reason I like a bit of a margin of error. Is it manageable to do without? Yes. Would I rather have the option? If I could, yes, I would.

If you utilize a high-thumbs grip (mechanically superior to anything else) it will not matter if you have a thumb safety or not, as your thumb will ride on top of it. It is the same grip you would use for a 1911 or a Glock or for pretty much anything else other than revolvers, so the idea of no thumb safety as an advantage is a bit of a reach. However, for a duty gun the Glock is by far the better choice.

There seems to be a reoccurring theme here that hasn't been fully examined. Here are some the advantages to the mechanical thumb safety on the 1911. While safe handling practices require you to keep your finger out of the trigger well until you are ready to shoot, that doesn't mean you can't turn the safety off. Due to the safety being part of the grip strategy of the 1911, the safety should be disengaged as the muzzle passes low ready. So, we can reasonably assume that for most people draw time would be the same with both pistols.

However, where the 1911 wins, is in the lower effort required and shorter travel distance of the single action trigger. If I have to get a shot off, with sweaty hands, shaking and scared, I'd trust my reflex time with single action much better than double. Single action, and by extension the thumb safety, also offer greater accuracy for my first shot because I wouldn't have a 10lbs trigger to reef back while I'm sweating buckets with warm wet pants.

So from my point of view that's two points for the thumb safety and 0 for the Glock Advantage.

How many gun fights you been in? You dont know how you will react under stress. Range stress or competiton stress is not the same as life or death having someone shooting at you.

I have never seen combat, yet I feel one can still examine the mechanics of the operation and training practices that can improve a person's chance of success should they ever be in a fire fight. I cannot ever fathom any reason I should ever be in a firefight. That does not remove my curiosity, my desire to learn the best practices even if they never are of practical use to me. I believe other posters in this thread feel the same way.

We're talking about safeties on pistols. I'm telling you that the gun with no external safety lever is safer than the 2 other pistols mentioned in this thread.

You could tell me all kinds of things and they may not be correct. I would appreciate it if you provided some supporting evidence to this claim.

The "Advantage" of the Glock is it's trigger system. Given other standards like reliability, firing pin and drop safeties; it's the consistent trigger with no frame mounted manual safety that gives the Glock it's advantage.

Is it the safest trigger out there? Probably not. The argument could be made that a DA/SA or an HK LEM are safer trigger systems, but neither is as safe AND easy to shoot. The Glock trigger is relatively easy to learn to shoot quite well.

I transitioned from a DA/SA pistol to the Glock and the trigger was a real treat in comparison.

There is a reason that every major pistol brand has knocked off the Glock in some fashion over the last twenty years. M&P, Styer, Walther, blah, blah blah, this list goes on an on.

YMMV

I would argue that the trigger of any DAO or DA/SA is its greatest disadvantage. The Glock needs a molded thumb support to help with grip.

There is a reason just about every major brand has knocked off the 1911 or any other of John Moses Browning designs. Glock is a genius but he's no JMB.

Well I think the 1911 is an unsafe gun. There's plenty of examples of 1911s that have gone off accidentally and they have the grip safety and a lever safety and decock etc. All those "safeties" give you a false sense of security, because in the end you STILL have to make sure that nothing gets inside the trigger guard. So if you still have to worry about nothing getting inside the trigger, then is there any real use having all those other safeties?

Any time I'm holding a handgun - ANY handgun, the number one safety thing that is on my mind is the trigger. There's just no advantage to me having other safeties, because regardless of what I use, the trigger is #1 on my mind. Unlike single action triggers though, a double action trigger will not go off by me resting my finger on the trigger - I have to purposely squeeze the trigger. I don't like the 1-2lb featherweight single action 1911. That to me is dangerous.

I think those would be examples of negligent dischages, not "accidents". The only time a firearm goes off is when you want it to, or when you're not giving it the attention it deserves.

I don't think the firearm should be on your mind at all. If you have to think about how to use your firearm during a defensive situation, you have not prepared enough. If a person were to get into a shooting situation the things they should be thinking about is the back drop, the perceived threat and the sight picture.

This discussion is dumb anyways because the Glock and the 1911 were made for two different jobs. The 1911 was designed by a genius to be a fighting pistol operated by a person with mechanical inclination.

The Glock was designed by a genius who understood that a bic lighter of firearms was needed to reduce operating costs and training time with modern man. Most of us are too lazy to learn how to use a 1911 properly.

You can't really compare a bic lighter to a zippo, yet they do the same thing.

 

[tazik]

thank you tiriaq for puting back the thread

I think GunGuy34 brought the exact point that matter and on why there is often confrontation when Glock talk ......

edit : meaning that we each have are own opinion...

, good info here in this thread, let go the crap and bring this this thread to a higher level of good info

why not guys.... ? this is why we have that kind of forum......access to info......

I guess in the end the advantage or disadvantage is in the eye of the user.

 

[Avenida]

I am still waiting an answer whether the PPQ is a DAO or SAO. Striker is fully cocked, therefore, is it considered a DAO?

How about the Glock, striker is 50% or more cocked, is this DAO?

what about SIG p250 DAO trigger where there is not cocking except when the trigger is pulled, then it actuates like a DA/SA in DA mode only.

Lem trigger, hammer spring completely cocked, retained by a sear that breaks at 4.5 lbs, after a long slack (demonstrated in the video), stops and breaks....HK calls it 'combat trigger' not DAO, although it is exactly same function as PPQ or Glock.

They are all similar approaches and they all do the same. But at the ned of the day. Which one is DAO?

Food for thought.

Good night.

 

[tazik]

Good points shared from Avenida, +1

trigger action feeling versus DA, different has he mentioned...I feel the same way, the work of the hammer is different then the feeling is different, i.e.: a 92fs is way different than a Glock on the trigger feeling !

trigger pull 4.5 -3.5lbs whatever ..., agree again.....more like a SA ready to shoot....

my 1911 is with a trigger travel of 1.5mm , this is how I like it......, why....because I do target shooting only with it, if it would be for everyday carry on .....no way it would be adjust like this......,....

personal choices and different opinions....

edit : let bring a 92fs without the manual safety.....well, On the DA it would do the same as the Glock with a ''trigger feeling'' safer than a Glock ...... my 2 cents

 

[bacon1337]

I am still waiting an answer whether the PPQ is a DAO or SAO. Striker is fully cocked, therefore, is it considered a DAO?

How about the Glock, striker is 50% or more cocked, is this DAO?

what about SIG p250 DAO trigger where there is not cocking except when the trigger is pulled, then it actuates like a DA/SA in DA mode only.

Lem trigger, hammer spring completely cocked, retained by a sear that breaks at 4.5 lbs, after a long slack (demonstrated in the video), stops and breaks....HK calls it 'combat trigger' not DAO, although it is exactly same function as PPQ or Glock.

They are all similar approaches and they all do the same. But at the ned of the day. Which one is DAO?

Food for thought.

Good night.

http://www.hk-usa.com/civilian_products/usp_general.asp

V8 is LEM trigger, classified as a special Double Action Only

The Sig Double Action Kellerman or DAK is also a Double action only. Similar in function to HK LEM.

The glock is a double action only setup by definition, and since the PPQ is cocked, it is classified as a Single action setup. Got it disqualified from a trial as a result IIRC.

 

[swissinn]

Pull trigger...goes boom. Gun works. All is well.

 

[Athrun[Zaft]

I am still waiting an answer whether the PPQ is a DAO or SAO. Striker is fully cocked, therefore, is it considered a DAO?

Long story short, if the trigger is even partially involved in cocking the firing mechanism, the trigger is in a double action mode. If that mode is the only mode the gun has, it is DAO, regardless of any other factors. The HK LEM trigger, SIG DAK, and Glock triggers are all technically DAOs; they are not revolver or DA/SA style DA triggers, but they are DAO nonetheless. The PPQ's striker is always at full ####, the trigger only releases it. Since it does no work towards cocking the striker, the PPQ is SAO.

 

[Clobbersauras]

I would argue that the trigger of any DAO or DA/SA is its greatest disadvantage. The Glock needs a molded thumb support to help with grip.

For certain applications, general police use, for instance, it's hard to beat DAO or DA/SA pistols for the added level of safety the longer trigger travel affords users.

The Glock does not need a molded thumb support. The user needs to adjust their grip to a non 1911 style of grip. Which incidentally, is the same grip needed for the vast majority pistols without frame mounted safeties. Riding the thumb safety on a 1911 affords a fantastic grip, but that same grip results in riding the slide lock lever on the Glocks, Sigs, M&P's, etc, etc...

 

[wicked_police]

This thread has not disappointed. Great entertainment!!!

And I find it funny how some of the most vocal, who are trying to sound the most knowledgable, are also mostly incorrect.

While I don't always agree with tdc, he usually knows what he is talking about when it comes to Glocks.

 

[Slavex]

a molded thumb support for a Glock? seriously?
It's not a matter of changing your grip from how you'd shoot a 1911, it's holding it the exact same ####ing way but instead of pressing down on the safety you lock your thumb onto your support hand (so yeah, that part is different, but the hand position overall is the same).
It's funny, people that know how to shoot guns have pretty much zero problems going between platforms. I can shoot a Glock one string, a CZ another, a DAO S&W semi or revolver the next with pretty much zero transitional problems. Even 1911's only cause me grief if they don't have the grip safety deactivated, or have a ####ty setup grip safety.
All this pissing and moaning about what's better, learn how to ####ing shoot.

 

[NavyCuda]

a molded thumb support for a Glock? seriously?
It's not a matter of changing your grip from how you'd shoot a 1911, it's holding it the exact same ####ing way but instead of pressing down on the safety you lock your thumb onto your support hand (so yeah, that part is different, but the hand position overall is the same).
It's funny, people that know how to shoot guns have pretty much zero problems going between platforms. I can shoot a Glock one string, a CZ another, a DAO S&W semi or revolver the next with pretty much zero transitional problems. Even 1911's only cause me grief if they don't have the grip safety deactivated, or have a ####ty setup grip safety.
All this pissing and moaning about what's better, learn how to ####ing shoot.

It's a fact that peoples hands are different. For some people the arrangement of the Glock and others pistols may be superior. I never once suggested that I was incapable of effectively using either firearm.

Are you suggesting there is no molded thumb support on the Glock? You make an interesting, yet flawed argument. Locking your thumb into your support hand does not offer as strong of a grip as having a physical hardpoint. Are we talking much difference, no, but gripping something hard like metal is always better than gripping something soft like flesh and bone. At least for me.

I know how to shoot, thank you sir. However, I can point out the reasons why I feel one means is better than another. You don't like arguing the merits of why one way may be better than another? You don't like people talking about the things they enjoy? Why so angry about my observations? My observations and experience may not be right for you, but they are for me.

 

[wicked_police]

That is, in my book...

There is the flaw in your method. You are arguing your point using your opinion as fact. Just because you think something is the way it is, does not make it fact.

The Glock needs a molded thumb support to help with grip.

Seriously? What about the Hogue grips for 1911's with finger grooves, or the slip on grips for 1911's... Don't those help with grip as well? Does that mean the original design was flawed and must now be fixed with aftermarket add-ons?

This discussion is dumb anyways (like most on cgn) because the Glock and the 1911 were made for two different jobs. The 1911 was designed by a genius to be a fighting pistol operated by a person with mechanical inclination.

You're saying the US military of 25+ years ago had more of a mechanical inclination than today's warfighters? Them being drafted automatically made them more mechanically inclined?

The Glock was designed by a genius who understood that a bic lighter of firearms was needed to reduce operating costs and training time with modern man. Most of us are too lazy to learn how to use a 1911 properly.

So the worlds best shooters, CAG, moved from 1911-pattern pistols to Glocks because, as modern men, they're too lazy to learn how to use a 1911 properly? And they'd rather use a 'bic' than something designed for the job?

Noted.


I'm not even going to bother with the op... Based on past threads and posts, it's a lost cause.

 

[tetra]

Hate all you want on Glock, they are reliable and perform.
I like all kinds of brands of handguns, but Glocks feel damn good in the hand.