I had my new barrel lapped - was it a mistake?

stellartonslim

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Hi folks,
three years ago I bought a new Savage 116 in 30-06 and before doing any shooting I had a gun smith lap the barrel on advice of a person I knew.

After reloading and doing lots of research here for the last two years of so, I've yet to find a load the shoots consistently good groups of 1" or better. (I tries lots of the IMR and H 4350, and currently and doing H4895 with 165 grain bullets.) I've been neck sizing my brass and have recently tried to full size the brass. Some of my brass has been shoot numerous times (up to seven or so I guess….) I measure the powder for each round and check the size of my brass casing and COL for each rounds. I'm fairly new to this, but I'm confident that I am constant with my rounds.

After some consideration, I'm wonder about having the barrel lapped and I realize that in all the literature out there, I've never heard suggestions that this is a good practice that will give you a more accurate and consistent performance from the barrel. I'm wondering if it was a mistake to have done this.

What are your thoughts on having a barrel lapped? I'm ready to sell this rifle. Any thoughts on this? (Not on the reloads, as there is heaps of stuff on a new guy reloading 30-06 rounds out there already)

Cheers.
 
did you ever shoot it before you had it lapped?

are you shooting match bullets or just run of the mill hunting bullets?

Have you got a consistent shooting rifle that you can rule out you as the shooter?

Have you gone over your scope and scope mounting hardware?
 
Before trying anything else or jumping to any quick conclusions since you have a Savage. How is the torque on your action screw? Is it even? Is your rifle bedded? Are you over cleaning your rifle? Is the barrel truly free floated any pressure points along the barrel (freely run a piece of paper up to the barrel nut without catching)?

Look up Savage Torque Tuning and see if this method helps you with your groups. Savage actions can be manipulated by the torque on the action screws.

The only concern for me would be the affect of lapping on the crown of the barrel. Lapping material over the crown may cause unevenness in the crown. Lapping is just a quicker way to wear down your barrel life if done to aggressively it could affect the lands (bore diameter) of your rifling thus reducing accuracy. Just my thoughts but I'm no expert.
 
What have you got to lose......gets better ,stays the same or gets worse.........personally,it boils down to $$$$$$$$ you want to spend for possible potential on a problem gun!!!
 
So the "barrel lapper" has the equipment and knowledge to improve a factory barrel? Barrel might be bad from the factory but now you'll never know. I can understand attempts to improve if barrel fails to shoot well, but to go into an untested barrel is .........?
 
Do you have a runout gauge to check your brass, meaning your rifle might be OK and you might have other problems.
More reloaded ammunition is loaded with excessive runout for the simple reason the decapping/expander button spindle is locked down off center than any other reason.

Have you tried brand new brass or quality factory loaded ammo to narrow down the problem?

Also as stated above you might be getting "bad vibes".

Tuning Savage Actions Using Action Screw Torque Settings (and it does work) :cheers:
http://bulletin.accurateshooter.com/2012/12/tuning-savage-actions-using-action-screw-torque-settings/

And for grins and giggles, bore scope photos of a new button rifled Savage barrel at the throat and one inch from the muzzle.

Throat-1-C-RS_zps60cef129.jpg


6inchesfrommuzzle-2_zps507846d8.jpg


Before and after fire lapping

beforeandafter_zps0cd22899.jpg


Tell us more about your rifle, scope, brass and reloading set up, and how much coffee you drink before pulling the trigger. ;)

I once had a surplus 03-A3 30-06 and the brass would warp and become banana shaped when fired and brand new brass gave the best accuracy.

runout_zpsfe87d011.jpg
 
Yes, you made a mistake. Go to Bartlein and Krieger sites, the two finest barrel makers in the world and follow their advice. Do not lap!
 
Cardinal rule of lapping - you need to cut off 1" from the muzzle end after lapping. That is reason why it is done before assembly.
There is the way to perform this operation on rifle itself but know how is beyond average gunsmith, lack of equipment and cost forbidding.
 
if you want improved performance, just buy a new custom barrel thats been lapped properly... ! you'll have a precise barrel and it will shoot well

lapping a factory barrel is like putting chrome tail pipes on your car and expecting a 100hp power increase lol
 
OP, you are asking a very general question and looking for a precise answer.

"I asked to drill a hole, it is now too deep?" Yes, no, maybe...

Why not ask the gunsmith what was done. Maybe he knows a thing or two... maybe he doesn't.

I have salvaged a variety of military bores and rough factory barrels with a "lapping" of sorts. It was more a polish then anything else and dropped the copper fouling considerably.

Did I remove metal from the actual rifling? Unlikely. Did I work off the rough spots? you bet.

So before condeming anything, consider what was actually done vs what the performance might have been. There are no shortage of factory barrels that would delight their owner if it would group 1moa.

For a long while, custom rifles that would hit that magical MOA mark at 100yds was worth glossy print in gun mags. Still is...

Wby has delighted hunters for decades with a 1.5 MOA guarantee. And those MkV's weren't cheap.

There are factory barrels that will shoot sub MOA and many that will not. So you have a barrel that is not a great shooter. Will it do the job of a hunting rifle? Is the cold bore shot dead on?

Are you using good optics, rail and rings? Did you properly bed the stock with a free floated barrel? How light or heavy is that trigger pull? What rests are you using? Keep the barrel cool between groups?

Shoot over wind flags?

have you been able to check your ammo in a rifle of known performance?

There are a lot of things that can make a rifle inaccurate.

If the goal was to have a hunting rifle capable of itty bitty groups, better build one using good parts especially the barrel. But if the factory rifle you have will deliver that first shot exactly where you want each and every time, maybe not such a bad rifle?????

YMMV

Jerry
 
Hi folks,
three years ago I bought a new Savage 116 in 30-06 and before doing any shooting I had a gun smith lap the barrel on advice of a person I knew..


After some consideration, I'm wonder about having the barrel lapped and I realize that in all the literature out there, I've never heard suggestions that this is a good practice that will give you a more accurate and consistent performance from the barrel. I'm wondering if it was a mistake to have done this.

You had this done and then did the research after the work was done??????? f:P:2:

Who was the gunsmith and what did he tell you when you asked him to do this work?
 
I agree with 1.5 MOA being a good hunting rifle, many won't do that, in my experience. A gun magazine writer I think, summed it up quite nicely a while back with the statement that good barrels were found, not made. So, if you find a stock hunting rifle that will group sub MOA, consider yourself lucky, just don't expect it.
 
If you are running a scope of at least 10 X, and preferably 20X, and if the rifle has been bedded by someone who knows what he is doing, and if you have done proper load development using match bullets, and if the barrel is cleaner with good technique, then you will be in a position to wonder about the accuracy of the barrel.

Until then, you don't know if lapping helped or hurt. It probably had no effect on accuracy, just made it easier to clean.

BTW, 30-06 is not one of the easy calibers to get to shoot tight groups.
 
I just have to be that guy...

Have you checked the basics? Action bedded/installed correctly/bolts torqued right? Scope mounts installed correctly/torqued right and snug?

The question about what bullets is valid too... what are you loading?

Even more of "that guy"... no offence intended, but can you shoot great groups from another rifle of similar power/recoil?

Lastly, it's a Savage. No need to sell the rifle, when a new barrel can be screwed on and headspaced correctly quite easily, if in fact your barrel is no good.
 
If you are running a scope of at least 10 X, and preferably 20X, and if the rifle has been bedded by someone who knows what he is doing, and if you have done proper load development using match bullets, and if the barrel is cleaner with good technique, then you will be in a position to wonder about the accuracy of the barrel.

Until then, you don't know if lapping helped or hurt. It probably had no effect on accuracy, just made it easier to clean.

BTW, 30-06 is not one of the easy calibers to get to shoot tight groups.


Back in August a fellow brought me a rifle that just would not shoot. He had it professionally lapped by a gunsmith in Ontario with a good reputation. From what I saw of his lapping job, it was a well earned reputation. I slugged the chamber and the muzzle ends to check diameters and they were as close to perfect as could be expected.

The bore was lovely. One of the nicest I've seen. Everything looked fine. It should have shot well. By the way, the rifle was a Savage, 30-06, composite stock with a Leupold VxIII 3-9 on Weaver bases and rings. A very nice hunting rig that should have performed very well.

I don't have a barrel nut wrench or torque wrench so I suggested to the fellow that he have the tension on the nut checked out by someone that did. It turns out the smith who did the lapping had already done that and included the information on the bill. That's when I asked if there was any other information on the bill.

It turned out, the smith had recommended that lapping wasn't necessary and really didn't like to lap especially in the case of this barrel which looked fine to him.

As we know, the customer is always right and this fellow insisted he wanted the bore lapped because his "BUD" had his done and the rifle was a tack driver. The smith, not being one to turn away money did the job and he did it extremely well.

I did a chamber/throat/leade cast to make sure it was all true to the axis of the bore. It was as close to perfect as any I have seen. CNC machining is a wonderful thing.

That only left other culprit. The bolt. When checked, I found something highly unusual in all of the late build Savage rifles I have seen. The locking lugs were not square to the receiver recesses they fit into. Not unusual on a Remington/Winchester or even some of the European offerings but on a late build Savage???

I lapped his lugs by the old tried and true method of stoning the side with the most contact until the opposing side started to show some contact. Then applied some lapping compound to the offending side and lapped the recess/lug until the other side showed at least 50% contact. Yes, this changed headspace by a few thou but that was ok because the owner was hand loading and there was no need to loosen the barrel and nut to make sure headspace was perfect. Fireforming would take care of that.
Luckily the bolt face was square to the axis of the bore as well.

The rifle's performance improved significantly. No, not a tack driver but close to moa and as reported later, the odd sub moa group with the 180 grain bullets the rifle preferred, seated to within .005 off the lands and a hot load of H4831/IMR4895.

The smith that did the lapping didn't check the bolt. Not sure I can fault him for that because I don't know the circumstances he was mandated to work under. The fellow that brought me the rifle was very adamant what he wanted done to it and no more. If he did the same thing to the other smith, I can see why he only got a lapping job. It turns out his "Bud" considers himself to be an expert in fine tuning rifles for accuracy. Maybe he is?

Anyway, all worked out well in this case but by the time he paid for the lapping of the barrel and by the time he traded me some components for lapping his bolt and checking his chamber/bore alignment he could have bought a new rifle.

I agree with many here. The only thing lapping, either by hand or fire lapping does is cause a bit of barrel wear and often, not always, make it easier to clean. To my experience, for what that is worth, it make little or no difference to how quickly a barrel will foul. Some barrels just don't seem to foul much at all, even with many rounds through them and others foul when a bullet passes by.

IMHO, fouling is one of the most misunderstood conditions in a bore and every barrel is and entity unto itself as to how it will be effected.

David Tubb once told me that he is in a position to select his barrels from hundreds. Depending on who is sponsoring him, he pretty much has the opportunity to either go to the factory or have several barrels sent to him for initial inspection before installing. You and I on the other hand take what we get and unless we notice something obvious before we start working on the barrel, that is what we have to work with. DT told me he rejects about 90% of the barrels he gets. Not because there is anything noticeably wrong with them but minor blemishes or color changes. He likes to receive his barrels as rough blanks that have been rifled and no more. Contouring can and does change harmonics.

Factory barrels have to appeal to everyone that wants a factory rifle. Novice or well experienced. IMHO, most people just want to buy a rifle and expect it to perform well. They don't understand or care to look into why bullets won't all go through the same hole. The rest is up to you. Barrels are what they are and each of them are individuals. We can do things to help them out but as DT says an accurate barrel is an accurate barrel or it isn't.







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