I need a little help with this .....Mauser

jibjedi

jibjedi

CGN Regular
Rating - 100%
178   0   0
Location
on short final
I have recently acquired this rifle and have done some browsing to figure out what its story is, but haven't gotten to far. If I am correct, it's a Karabiner 98a? But I am totally lost in regards to all the strange markings.

I was hoping to get some thoughts from the more knowledgeable here about its origins and maybe some idea of value, as my experience with Mausers is very limited.

Here are some pics. Thanks for the help in advance!

IMG_2897.jpg


IMG_2900.jpg


IMG_2896.jpg


IMG_2899.jpg
 
1915 dated Kar 98 from the German state arsenal at Erfurt. The EWB brand on the stock relates to the Bavarian post WW1 militaria group that was found in Bavarian after WW1 primarily to stop and prevent, I think, communist spread into Germany (or Bavaria for that matter). Remember, less than a year before, Imperial Russia had just fallen to communism so it seemed to be a very real threat in post war Germany.

That tells you where that carbine was in 1918, in the hands of a Bavarian soldier who was part of the EWB (can't remember the exact name off the top of my head).

The "7.91" is the land diameter of the bore as measured at Erfurt in 1915.

The "8x57 IS" looks to be a post WW1 applied marking and I believe it to be U.S. in origin though I may be wrong. It is the first time I have seen this marking.

The eagle on the forward left of the receiver is the Prussian property mark denoting acceptance of the firearm into German military service. The original serial number is 5286 L (?).

I believe the side ways eagle underneath is Weimar republic era in origin. I believe that eagle marking combined with the "572" denotes possible police use (seems to have been a common post war use for these carbines). The "572" and antlers may also relate to the EWB but so few of these carbines and rifles are documented so it is difficult to say exactly what is what with marked examples.

The "WAESCH SCHW HALL" marking, I haven't a clue. It may relate to the EWB posting or perhaps possible police use.

You do have one nice walnut stock, clearly marked for German ownership (originally Prussian by the looks of it) that ended up with a Bavarian unit at the end of WW1. The stock is a "Type I" that classifies it as a walnut type for the wood, without finger grasping grooves, and without take down disc. It is the first pattern that the "lengthened carbine" was adopted with when accepted for service in 1908.

It looks like your bayonet lug is missing, do you have a picture of this area in detail, I am curious to see what happened here.

Overall, a VERY nice carbine with plenty of history.

As far as value, matching numbers on Imperial German rifles/carbines can seriously affect the price in the market it seems. Some people may not like the "EWB" brand while others will appreciate the historical value. From the few Kar 98s in full military I have seen, the price ranges between $600 up to $1000 depending on condition, maker, unit markings, date of make, battle damage, matching numbers...etc.

Does yours have matching numbers ? If you are not sure where to look, just let me know and I'll point out where to have a peak.
 
Nabs said:
1915 dated Kar 98 from the German state arsenal at Erfurt. The EWB brand on the stock relates to the Bavarian post WW1 militaria group that was found in Bavarian after WW1 primarily to stop and prevent, I think, communist spread into Germany (or Bavaria for that matter). Remember, less than a year before, Imperial Russia had just fallen to communism so it seemed to be a very real threat in post war Germany.

That tells you where that carbine was in 1918, in the hands of a Bavarian soldier who was part of the EWB (can't remember the exact name off the top of my head).

The "7.91" is the land diameter of the bore as measured at Erfurt in 1915.

The "8x57 IS" looks to be a post WW1 applied marking and I believe it to be U.S. in origin though I may be wrong. It is the first time I have seen this marking.

The eagle on the forward left of the receiver is the Prussian property mark denoting acceptance of the firearm into German military service. The original serial number is 5286 L (?).

I believe the side ways eagle underneath is Weimar republic era in origin. I believe that eagle marking combined with the "572" denotes possible police use (seems to have been a common post war use for these carbines). The "572" and antlers may also relate to the EWB but so few of these carbines and rifles are documented so it is difficult to say exactly what is what with marked examples.

The "WAESCH SCHW HALL" marking, I haven't a clue. It may relate to the EWB posting or perhaps possible police use.

You do have one nice walnut stock, clearly marked for German ownership (originally Prussian by the looks of it) that ended up with a Bavarian unit at the end of WW1. The stock is a "Type I" that classifies it as a walnut type for the wood, without finger grasping grooves, and without take down disc. It is the first pattern that the "lengthened carbine" was adopted with when accepted for service in 1908.

It looks like your bayonet lug is missing, do you have a picture of this area in detail, I am curious to see what happened here.

Overall, a VERY nice carbine with plenty of history.

As far as value, matching numbers on Imperial German rifles/carbines can seriously affect the price in the market it seems. Some people may not like the "EWB" brand while others will appreciate the historical value. From the few Kar 98s in full military I have seen, the price ranges between $600 up to $1000 depending on condition, maker, unit markings, date of make, battle damage, matching numbers...etc.

Does yours have matching numbers ? If you are not sure where to look, just let me know and I'll point out where to have a peak.
Click to expand...

looks more like a post war, West German Proof from Ulm in May 1972.

this rifle is in great condition, the best I ever saw...
 
Your kar is marked for the Einwohnerwehr Bayern (Bavarian Home Guard) an armed post war (circa 1918-20) conservative militia filling a similar function to the Freikorps (but less formally organised), raised to confront the Munich Soviet.

They were disbanded (after ending the threat of a Red Bavaria) along with the Freikorp by order of the Allied Disarmament Commission. Many Freikorp and Einwohnerwehr members were then integrated in the new Reichswehr.

Your rifle was is not double dated (1920). Such double dates indicate official use by the Reichswehr. Germany was only allowed to re-arm enough to equip a 100,000 man force which was further restricted in the number of MGs and pistols.

A very good find indeed!
 
Last edited:
The other marking may be for the district/town of Schwäbisch Hall (part of present Baden-Württemberg), not far from Nuremberg or Erfurt itself. Swabian/Bavarian association there as well I would think. Further, the town was previously known simply as Hall and did not take the title Schwäbisch Hall until so named by the Nazi Party in 1934, making this carbine possibly a retained "illegal arm" under the Versaille Treaty post 1920 disarmament provisions.
 
Wow, thanks for all the info fellas ...this rifle sounds like it could have some seriously interesting stories to tell!

I would have never have figured out these details on my own ....cheers!
 
The joy of sharing information and pictures, it is almost like I own that carbine now in my collection :D.

Did I forget to mention that wood stock is drop dead gorgeous ?
 
Nabs said:
1915 dated Kar 98 from the German state arsenal at Erfurt. The EWB brand on the stock relates to the Bavarian post WW1 militaria group that was found in Bavarian after WW1 primarily to stop and prevent, I think, communist spread into Germany (or Bavaria for that matter). Remember, less than a year before, Imperial Russia had just fallen to communism so it seemed to be a very real threat in post war Germany.

That tells you where that carbine was in 1918, in the hands of a Bavarian soldier who was part of the EWB (can't remember the exact name off the top of my head).

The "7.91" is the land diameter of the bore as measured at Erfurt in 1915.

The "8x57 IS" looks to be a post WW1 applied marking and I believe it to be U.S. in origin though I may be wrong. It is the first time I have seen this marking.

The eagle on the forward left of the receiver is the Prussian property mark denoting acceptance of the firearm into German military service. The original serial number is 5286 L (?).

I believe the side ways eagle underneath is Weimar republic era in origin. I believe that eagle marking combined with the "572" denotes possible police use (seems to have been a common post war use for these carbines). The "572" and antlers may also relate to the EWB but so few of these carbines and rifles are documented so it is difficult to say exactly what is what with marked examples.

The "WAESCH SCHW HALL" marking, I haven't a clue. It may relate to the EWB posting or perhaps possible police use.

You do have one nice walnut stock, clearly marked for German ownership (originally Prussian by the looks of it) that ended up with a Bavarian unit at the end of WW1. The stock is a "Type I" that classifies it as a walnut type for the wood, without finger grasping grooves, and without take down disc. It is the first pattern that the "lengthened carbine" was adopted with when accepted for service in 1908.

It looks like your bayonet lug is missing, do you have a picture of this area in detail, I am curious to see what happened here.

Overall, a VERY nice carbine with plenty of history.

As far as value, matching numbers on Imperial German rifles/carbines can seriously affect the price in the market it seems. Some people may not like the "EWB" brand while others will appreciate the historical value. From the few Kar 98s in full military I have seen, the price ranges between $600 up to $1000 depending on condition, maker, unit markings, date of make, battle damage, matching numbers...etc.



http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Schwäbisch_Hall

SCHW HALL is apparently a place . A little rusty here, :D But I think Schwaben refers to a district in southern Germany. Who knows, this piece might have been with, or against Herr Hitler, at the Beer Hall putsch.
Click to expand...
 
Quite possible, some of the early members of the German Workers Party were part of the EWB. I think Ernst Rohm was part of the EWB as well but don't quote me.
 
jibjedi, that is a great looking rifle.

The bayonet lug may have been removed in the early 1950s when the West German government decided that if a rifle had a bayonet lug, it was considered an assault or battle implement and couldn't be sold to the public in West Germany. I've had a few Mauser 98s, though never a decent 98a show up with or without one. To tell the truth, 98a rifles aren't all that common. 98a rifles in that kind of shape are far less common. I'm jealous but happy that you provided such clear pics. Thanks.

I would estimate the value of that rifle at $1000+. The 8x57IS stamp is also a 60s stamp by the West Germans. I would have thought that they would have stamped it 7.92JS. I say this because all of the other receivers I've seen with the bayo lug removed have a similar stamp. It's possible that they may have been stamped that way for North American sales only.

When I worked at Lever Arms, there were a lot of K98s that came in with the bayo lugs cut off. Some were done so that it looked like they were never there and some were ground off crudely. Even the rough edges from the grinder were still present. The thing is, I don't see any other marks on the rifle to indicate export. Not that it was common for such marks in the 60s or early 70s.
 
Wow, I learned something new today. I didn't know Germany (West Germany for that matter) was marking firearms like this carbine in the 1960s-70s. Was it a requirement before being sold onto the private market ?
 
Nabs, to my knowledge, West Germany decided the bayo lug made the rifles dangerous. They also stamped them with ID marks to show they were sold out of service. All I can remember is someone form International in Montreal telling us that some rifles were marked and some weren't. I do remember for sure that the bayo lugs were removed in a helter skelter manner. As for the cartridge designation stamps, I do remember seeing them on K98s and K98as. I don't ever recall seeing that stamp on any of the GEW98s and that's where I would have expected to see them.

Many of the K98a, Gew 98s etc, ended up as war booty and or reparation payment. My grandfather, who died in 1980 at the ripe old age of 94, told me that when WWI ended, there were armies of men scrounging the battlefields, private homes and buildings, government warehouses etc for anything that looked like a firearm. If they were considered to be in unreclaimable condition, they were put onto large piles and the wood was burned off them so that they could collect the metal easier. This didn't just apply to German and allied nations. It applied to whatever they could find. For the most part Germany's small arms went to the nations they attacked or whoes soil they fought on to help pay for the war damage. My grandfather left Prussia while the war was on, he could see the writing on the wall. Most of his brothers, 8, were all killed in the trenches. The same went for his mother and father. He always carried a pocket pistol right up to the mid thirties, when he came to Canada for some of the free crown land that was available. That's another story though,

That 98a could easily have either stayed in West Geman warehouses or more likely came out of East German warehouses or maybe even Poland or Czechoslovakia. I would display the pics of that rifle on Milsurps Knowledge Network. There are a lot of international members there. Several are from continental Europe and would be more than happy to give him all of the information he can absorb. Those fellows really know their stuff.
 
Nabs said:
Quite possible, some of the early members of the German Workers Party were part of the EWB. I think Ernst Rohm was part of the EWB as well but don't quote me.
Click to expand...

Many if not most members of the various Einwohnerwehr and Freikorps units were active in the radical conservative revolutionary movement. The NSDAP evolved somewhat from this movement but considered it reactionary, persecuting those members who did not join it. Claus von Stauffenberg was one such revolutionary conservative as was Ernst Junger.
 
Last edited:
Nabs said:
Quite possible, some of the early members of the German Workers Party were part of the EWB. I think Ernst Rohm was part of the EWB as well but don't quote me.
Click to expand...

Rohm was a captain in the Reichswehr during this time.

As for the Volksdeutsch movement, Hitler learned after the Putsch that alliances mean compromise. He played his cards well by ensuring through coercion, manipulation and violence that the NSDAP came up on top. He would completely rebuff any offer at alliance, preferring to destroy a rival organization and assimilate its membership. He also made it against the bylaws to be a member of more than one organization once you did join the NSDAP.

Joachim Fest's biography Hitler is the authority IMO on understanding this time and the rise of the NSDAP. But a LONG and DETAILED read be warned LOL

As for the rifle, all I can think is WHY WHY WHY didn't this fall into my greasy palms? :cheers:
 
markswoman said:
Hi, as far as I know the antler is from the German Beschussamt in Oberndorf Neckar. http://de.wikipedia.org/wiki/Datei:Logo_Beschussamt_Oberndorf_am_Neckar.jpg
Click to expand...

As far as you know...?

Here is the web site from the "Beschussamt" in Ulm.

If you have any HK, Walther, Krieghoff, Anschuetz etc... firearms which were produced after the WW II, they should have the same /similar proof mark.
The "side ways eagle" ( as some call it) is called the "Bundesadler", symbol of the Bundesrepublik Deutschland.

http://www.google.ca/url?sa=t&source=web&cd=3&ved=0CCkQjBAwAg&url=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.beschussamt.eu%2Fbeschussamt%2Fhauptnavigation%2Fwaffentechnik%2F05_beschusszeichen%2Findex.php&ei=kXyVTrX7K4bf0QHE29W6Bw&usg=AFQjCNFqWbFnaTJL-1UORCAlVbsJEJ0Hpg

It is very possible that the rifle was (from overseas ?) imported to West Germany, and therefore had to be proofed like any other imported firearm.
 
You must log in or register to reply here.
Back
Top Bottom