I Screwed Up, and I Knew Better !!!

And for that reason when Dogleg offers his opinion on bullet performance I pay attention, but neither do I ever dismiss what anyone says who I believe to be a credible observer, especially if that observation differs from my own experience. That's when its really valuable.
 
crazy_davey said:
Maybe just to show that even experienced hunters can make bad shots. Not just the young new hunters.

It happens to the best of us. Guys who say it doesn't are full of it.
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I agree. I haven't the foggiest clue what happened in that video. The three of us still talk about it. I've shot a bunch of game with barnes bullets since with no issue. The more I see, the less I know.
 
Chuck, when you examined the buck, how high was the shot on the lungs ?

I recall reading something from Finn Aagard about animals hit high in between lungs and spine or at the very top of the lungs running for long periods or even recovering.

And he wasn't talking about Barnes bullets either, so presumably there was also some fragmentation.
 
Gatehouse said:
Chuck, when you examined the buck, how high was the shot on the lungs ?

I recall reading something from Finn Aagard about animals hit high in between lungs and spine or at the very top of the lungs running for long periods or even recovering.

And he wasn't talking about Barnes bullets either, so presumably there was also some fragmentation.
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I have seen that which you describe above personally and when I get a minute I will expound. But this one was well into the main lobes of the lungs. You can see that he bled quite profusely from his mouth.
 
Gatehouse said:
I recall reading something from Finn Aagard about animals hit high in between lungs and spine or at the very top of the lungs running for long periods or even recovering.
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The Germans call that shot holeschutz (sp?) and from what I understand the animal usually drops at the shot, and then after some time it pops back up and takes off.

Interestingly Ganyana wrote about how the lung shot may not be ideal.

A quote:
All in all, La Garde's fascinating book, and to a lesser extent, Blair-Brown's detailed Zulu war report tells us a lot about survivability of wounds, and make a very real case for premium bullets and accurate shot placement. They also make a good case against neck shots and general lung shots on the larger game - the whole lung is not a target, only the blood vessels within it. Since you cannot know the position of those arteries and veins from all angles it is better to aim for something like the heart, a much larger target, whose position remains constant.
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http://www.shakariconnection.com/bullet-wounds.html
 
1899 said:
The Germans call that shot holeschutz (sp?) and from what I understand the animal usually drops at the shot, and then after some time it pops back up and takes off.

Interestingly Ganyana wrote about how the lung shot may not be ideal.

A quote:


http://www.shakariconnection.com/bullet-wounds.html
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My cousin and I were hunting Mule Deer as teenagers. We had split up to walk around an acre sized patch of brush and when we met up again he had blood on his hands and said he had killed his deer. I was baffled because I had heard no shot. He had killed it with his knife (slit its throat). He found it almost dead and from the snow over his tracks he had been there over night. He had been shot right between the spine and lungs likely at least 12 hours earlier.
 
chuck nelson said:
I have seen that which you describe above personally and when I get a minute I will expound. But this one was well into the main lobes of the lungs. You can see that he bled quite profusely from his mouth.
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What you experienced is about what I expect from a low impact speed Barnes bullet. I used the very similar 140 grain TSX a fair bit in the STW at 3500 fps and it wasn't exactly awe inspiring. If I had a dollar for every time I shot something with a TSX and people told me I missed I could buy a new barrel by now. I'm glad you put up your video, so others can see what I've been saying for years. Many hunters would have lost that animal simply because it doesn't look hit. Heck it doesn't even look scared.

The TSX have certain advantages, they won't completely blow up when driven into the hardest bone and thickest parts of the biggest animals at the highest magnum speeds even at the shortest range when they still have most of it left. Second, they are among the best for shooting through things lengthwise. They're pretty good for those two instances, but so is surplus .303 hard-point when you think about it.

Your situation was completely different. A 380 yard shot at the softest spot of a rather small animal doesn't play to the bullet's strengths especially when its a fringe lung hit. Your velocity is going to be down to 2300 fps + or - and wont be violently displacing tissue. Just about any ordinary bullet you could name is going to be better in your situation. I'd wager that the cheapest factory .280 ammo you can find to shoot in your AI chamber would have had a better effect with the same hit. Flip the situation around to where its a mud covered, quartering toward bull moose getting shot though the shoulder joint at 50 feet with a 7mm Ultra and the bullet you have is about as good as it gets.
 
Dogleg said:
What you experienced is about what I expect from a low impact speed Barnes bullet. I used the very similar 140 grain TSX a fair bit in the STW at 3500 fps and it wasn't exactly awe inspiring. If I had a dollar for every time I shot something with a TSX and people told me I missed I could buy a new barrel by now. I'm glad you put up your video, so others can see what I've been saying for years. Many hunters would have lost that animal simply because it doesn't look hit. Heck it doesn't even look scared.

The TSX have certain advantages, they won't completely blow up when driven into the hardest bone and thickest parts of the biggest animals at the highest magnum speeds even at the shortest range when they still have most of it left. Second, they are among the best for shooting through things lengthwise. They're pretty good for those two instances, but so is surplus .303 hard-point when you think about it.

Your situation was completely different. A 380 yard shot at the softest spot of a rather small animal doesn't play to the bullet's strengths especially when its a fringe lung hit. Your velocity is going to be down to 2300 fps + or - and wont be violently displacing tissue. Just about any ordinary bullet you could name is going to be better in your situation. I'd wager that the cheapest factory .280 ammo you can find to shoot in your AI chamber would have had a better effect with the same hit. Flip the situation around to where its a mud covered, quartering toward bull moose getting shot though the shoulder joint at 50 feet with a 7mm Ultra and the bullet you have is about as good as it gets.
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I don't disagree with any of this. But a partition might just be great in both of your scenarios. But I hear it has gone out of fashion. :)
 
chuck nelson said:
I don't disagree with any of this. But a partition might just be great in both of your scenarios. But I hear it has gone out of fashion. :)
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A Partition is one of the very best in both situations. Half varmint bullet that will expand, explode, fragment and otherwise tear up critters at both high and low speeds. If that doesn't work the second half will keep going just on the off-chance that the violent expansion wasn't enough to get the job done.

But you already know that.;)
 
Gatehouse said:
Chuck, when you examined the buck, how high was the shot on the lungs ?

I recall reading something from Finn Aagard about animals hit high in between lungs and spine or at the very top of the lungs running for long periods or even recovering.

And he wasn't talking about Barnes bullets either, so presumably there was also some fragmentation.
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I lost a very nice whitetail buck to this a few years back. Later determined that my scope had been knocked out of whack somehow between sighting in a few weeks earlier and that morning in the treestand. It was a fairly easy shot, slow walk to my right at about 90-100 yards. The shot rolled him completely over on his side, I was yahoo ing when he got back on his front legs and started scooting around, readied for a follow up but he suddenly kicked out his hind legs and went over a fence. We tracked for miles but never did find him, the blood trail dried up and no idea if he made it or the coyotes got him. From where he laid down in the snow you could see the shot was a little far back and high, just under the spine. Checked the rifle afterwards and I'm sure he would've been DRT if not for the misaligned optic. We also found a copper jacket in that same spot in a doe that was shot with a patch and ball, so it is definitely a survivable wound provided the predators don't pick up on their condition.
 
Dogleg said:
A Partition is one of the very best in both situations. Half varmint bullet that will expand, explode, fragment and otherwise tear up critters at both high and low speeds. If that doesn't work the second half will keep going just on the off-chance that the violent expansion wasn't enough to get the job done.

But you already know that.;)
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Trophy Bear Claw ain't bad either for an off the shelf bullet, pretty much a mono rear behind an easily expandable lead nose.
 
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