SBS_ICEMAN
CGN Regular
- Location
- BC, Lower mainland
I though Tavors were "inaccurate"
- Thread starter Alberta Woodsman
- Start date
Gunnerlove
CGN Ultra frequent flyer
- Location
- Vancouver Island
How do I put this nicely? You are wrong.
3 round groups do not allow the group to form, from cold bore they will also not show zero shift in a gun as it warms.
A three round group has zero value beyond ego stroking, marketing and getting a rough zero.
In the military when selecting competition rifles it is 5 round groups minimum (we have no mag limits) and ten in confirmation because we never end up shooting 3 rounds on score in a match, it will be somewhere between 1 and 100+ and knowing what less than half a group will look is knowing very little. Kind of like what a 3 round zero looks like.
3 round groups do not allow the group to form, from cold bore they will also not show zero shift in a gun as it warms.
A three round group has zero value beyond ego stroking, marketing and getting a rough zero.
In the military when selecting competition rifles it is 5 round groups minimum (we have no mag limits) and ten in confirmation because we never end up shooting 3 rounds on score in a match, it will be somewhere between 1 and 100+ and knowing what less than half a group will look is knowing very little. Kind of like what a 3 round zero looks like.
Flyers do exist. They are usually the cause of a mistake in the ammunition manufacturing process.
Real "flyers" are quite rare with quality ammunition.
"Pulling" and "Calling" a shot is not a flyer... it is a mistake made on the part of the shooter.
A three round group is not an indication of a skilled shooter.
A five round group is not an indication of a skilled shooter.
Five 5 round groups on the same paper with no "called" shots is an indication of a good shooter/rifle.
I have had .350" groups at 100m with my rifles, yet they are not 1/2" guns. I am averaging .75" with 25 rounds same day same target.
I am not a "good" shooter.
A good shooter is someone that can apply the basic marksmanship principles effectively, and is proficient at calculating range, wind, trajectory, etc.
They must possess the knowledge and understanding of the factors involved in making the shot, and apply the knowledge correctly and consistently.
Most importantly a good shooter is always learning and applying what they have learned to their skill.
Real "flyers" are quite rare with quality ammunition.
"Pulling" and "Calling" a shot is not a flyer... it is a mistake made on the part of the shooter.
A three round group is not an indication of a skilled shooter.
A five round group is not an indication of a skilled shooter.
Five 5 round groups on the same paper with no "called" shots is an indication of a good shooter/rifle.
I have had .350" groups at 100m with my rifles, yet they are not 1/2" guns. I am averaging .75" with 25 rounds same day same target.
I am not a "good" shooter.
A good shooter is someone that can apply the basic marksmanship principles effectively, and is proficient at calculating range, wind, trajectory, etc.
They must possess the knowledge and understanding of the factors involved in making the shot, and apply the knowledge correctly and consistently.
Most importantly a good shooter is always learning and applying what they have learned to their skill.
Alberta Woodsman
CGN Regular
- Location
- In a holler some wheres
I'd have to agree with you on all accounts
Gunnerlove
CGN Ultra frequent flyer
- Location
- Vancouver Island
Shooting for groups is a valuable part of equipment testing and load development, period. Lots of people will read more into it but that is it, equipment testing.
Matches and competitions are tests of marksmanship (picking your mark and hitting it) . In my opinion shooting consistently well at multiple competitions is a sign of a skilled shooter. As is being able to keep it together for as many shots as required.
I barely consider myself a mediocre shooter.
I think there are many different criteria of a "good shooter"
1 under stress duress
2 at distance
3 consistency grouping
4 fast target acquisition and putting rounds in the kill zone
5 under adverse environmental conditions
any master of one of these can be called a "good shooter" but in competitions like you mentioned all 4 (potentially 5)are in play.
Alberta Woodsman
CGN Regular
- Location
- In a holler some wheres
If I could shoot 1/2" groups I would but I cant. I mean once in a while like the other day I can but nominally no I cant. Now give me my old anshultz 22, a sturdy rest and a target at 25 yards I'll give you 1/4" groups but I have shot many many rounds through that rifle and I know it well.
boss351cleveland
CGN frequent flyer
- Location
- Down by the river
Hard to believe that 52gr was shot from a 1/7 twist barrel that well? most dont like light bullets . All my 1/7 barreled rifles seem to like the 68gr most out of all bullets , they all seem to open up a bit if i shoot a 55gr load ., Did this Tavor have a aftermarket trigger ?
r34skyline
CGN Ultra frequent flyer
Tavors are built for BATTLE. It's not a F-Class competitor. It was designed from the ground up to drop terrorists across the middle east. Call me out on what you will but that's what it was built for. People can be dropped at 100 yards(remember mostly urban warfare over there) with a 4 moa gun. Hell a 3 moa gun can easily do an average terrorist at 200 with center mass shots. Keep that in mind next time whinging about its accuracy. It met its accuracy requirements for its design purpose.
I don't understand this obsession over ridiculous accuracy expections of battle rifles. Yes a couple designs like the hk416 and swiss san rifles, multiple examples have demonstrated consistant sub moa-1 moa groups out of the box with good ammo. But a battle rifle needs to be 2-4 moa for the most part to be effective, that is the requirement most armies set. most of them can do 1.5-2 moa(including the tavor)
I don't understand this obsession over ridiculous accuracy expections of battle rifles. Yes a couple designs like the hk416 and swiss san rifles, multiple examples have demonstrated consistant sub moa-1 moa groups out of the box with good ammo. But a battle rifle needs to be 2-4 moa for the most part to be effective, that is the requirement most armies set. most of them can do 1.5-2 moa(including the tavor)
Alberta Woodsman
CGN Regular
- Location
- In a holler some wheres
I tried 70gr speer somethingorothers but they didn't shoot as well. The rifle had its stock trigger, rifle is a gen 2. I was useing a led sled which helped a lot.
J
As I said, YMMV.
If you want to shell out 2500$ for a mediocre firearm that can just hold its own against a Mini14 in the accuracy department, then fill your boots.
Personally, I think it is the LCF of an Israeli issued rifle and the non-restricted status that most people fawn over, but whatever.
With respect to the military application, there are Several factors:
- considering it is a 21st century firearm, and it is bested by 50+ year old designs, leaves one wondering what the designers were thinking, especially when warefare in this day and age where accountability in and amongst civilian populations is scrutinized more and more.
- consider that the highest possible accuracy out of the rifle/ammo combo would be a major advantage in a combat environment, where the soldiers' marksmanship principles are being taxed and likely degraded to their highest levels.
- I don't think 2 moa, or even approaching 1 moa is a rediculous expectation from Service rifles and ammo in this day and age.
Shooting Norincrap ammo from a Tavor and a C8 just proves the rather brutal results from the Chinese stuff. - to the point that I'm quite suprised people are still buying it.
As I said, YMMV.
If you want to shell out 2500$ for a mediocre firearm that can just hold its own against a Mini14 in the accuracy department, then fill your boots.
Personally, I think it is the LCF of an Israeli issued rifle and the non-restricted status that most people fawn over, but whatever.
With respect to the military application, there are Several factors:
- considering it is a 21st century firearm, and it is bested by 50+ year old designs, leaves one wondering what the designers were thinking, especially when warefare in this day and age where accountability in and amongst civilian populations is scrutinized more and more.
- consider that the highest possible accuracy out of the rifle/ammo combo would be a major advantage in a combat environment, where the soldiers' marksmanship principles are being taxed and likely degraded to their highest levels.
- I don't think 2 moa, or even approaching 1 moa is a rediculous expectation from Service rifles and ammo in this day and age.
Shooting Norincrap ammo from a Tavor and a C8 just proves the rather brutal results from the Chinese stuff. - to the point that I'm quite suprised people are still buying it.
Cauz I rather shoot steel with cheap ammo...
still better then a T97 ...
lol... and they are no other option for nice bullpups for now. and the amount of fun I have with the Tavor is worth the 2K
BattleRife
CGN Ultra frequent flyer
- Location
- of No Fixed Address
Of rifles in general. I have come to the conclusion that Townsend Whelen did the greatest disservice of the 20th Century to the shooting community with his "only accurate rifles..." comment. I would guess that 19 shooters out of 20 will never be in a situation where they could benefit from a rifle delivering better than 2 MOA. But they waste untold time and money pursuing utterly meaningless accuracy levels and arguing with others who are trying to do the same. Sub-MOA rifles have become the shooting equivalent of a circle jerk.
r34skyline
CGN Ultra frequent flyer
Who says I shelled over 2500 for a tavor, or that I even bought one, the singular appeal of the rifle to me is it is the only non restricted battle proven weapon. That's it, if the ar was non res you think I would waste a second looking at anything else? I would have picked up a 416a5 for whatever I can and never look back. As it sits I am waiting for them to go below 2k(with what's coming it won't be far away)
Is it a fair expectation to get 1 moa rested with good ammo? I would say yes. but in combat unless you are the dmr it's highly unlikely the gun is rested, and most of the time the guns are sent out with red dots, which usually have anywhere from 2-4moa dots to start with. but for accuracy requirements it will do fine to have a 2-3 moa gun.
Put said mini 14 in the same combat environments the idf is putting their gear against, and i am willing to bet that mini will fall apart, I'll even put $2500 on that.
Is your expectations of a 1.5 moa or less gun with decent ammo a fair expectation? Yes, I don't disagree I expect a new design to completely outperform the old, and the tavor does not outperform the m4, or the perennial bullpup the aug, and at best performs on par.
My question is what good is a 0.8 moa hk416 when i put a 4 moa aimpoint on it? I can't hope that rifle will shoot close to its accuracy potential with such a coarse optic on it. See where I am going with this?
On a sidenote please clarify that statement about the norinco ammo on tavor and c8 please
