I wouldn't hunt with BI-METAL bullets

Riflechair

Riflechair

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FOR YOUR CONSIDERATION
Red Rifles are often out hunting every fall.
A lot of us use bi-metal hunting ammunition

Some time ago I made a video praising the SCDS LVE manufactured 203gr Soft point ammunition that was for sale at Westrifle. This 203gr pill was coming out of a 91/30 barrel clocking just over 2400 fps and it shot very accurately. However the bi-metal jacket (copper coated steel jacket) does not give you much (if any) expansion.

I would place it in the category of Full Metal Jacket (FMJ) simply because of the poor expansion and suggest that there is better hunting ammo available out there. SCDS is the same ammo branded to WOLF (made by LVE - same factory as the branded SCDS ammo) It is the same ammunition.

Hunting is all about Bullet Placement - I get it. However you will more likely wound the animals and then have to track it down (risk losing it). I recommend you don't use Bi-Metal jacketed ammunition for hunting.

The chap in this video praises it for it's deep penetration however I suggest he doesn't understand the expectation of a bullet to mushroom and create a large would channel and liquify internal organs. I will be deleting all of the videos I made praising this as a viable hunting ammunition.

 
The extreme penetration I think will almost be a good thing for shooting something like a bear,... it sounds like many people shoot them through the front shoulders (so the animal will not be as effective at running), which then passes the bullet through the chest cavity.
 
p.Rundle said:
No kidding you shouldn't hunt with bimetal.......I hope everyone knew this already
Click to expand...

I think you will find that it is not apparent for a wide majority of Canadians that shoot red rifles. Especially considering this ammo is marketed as hunting ammunition.
 
Another post on the same issue? Are you next going to tell the cast guys to stop using hard cast?

The video misses one very important item for a large game bullet. Hide. Also the muscle tissue is probably tougher then the ballistics gel, all which will assist with expansion.

As for penetration, any .30cal would have hi penetration. Unless it was some type of frangible. Even my 30.06 at 75 yards blew threw a bull moose in a quartering shot and a follow through head shot. There was no expansion on the head shot at all. Just alot of leaking Jello.

I have several boxes on the mfs 203gr in 7.62x54r hunting ammo and plan to use it for bear and moose. I will use something light 180gr or less if I can find something for deer as they are lighter, and thin skinned. But the 203gr bullets would still work. Just a bit of over construction for the game type, but it will do.
 
Thanks man that video was helpful.
My problem is that most of the shots I take are around 200 to 300 metres
That big 203gr slug starts to really slow down around that range and I'm worried what that bi-metal jacket might do at lower velocities.

parts-man said:
I actually did a comparison of Barnaul and Sellier & Bellot 7.62x39 in ballistics gel. The Barnaul made a good showing for itself.
https://youtu.be/e0bQRnNl7YM
Sorry, can't figure out how to embed. :jerkit:
Click to expand...
 
You are crazy to use hard ball or bi- metal for hunting #1 is no expansion # 2 bi- metal with steel tip means the base is heaverier than nose meaning once it slows down will tumble #3 the crap is the worst for richochets it will bounce of trees etc!
 
220 said:
You are crazy to use hard ball or bi- metal for hunting #1 is no expansion # 2 bi- metal with steel tip means the base is heaverier than nose meaning once it slows down will tumble #3 the crap is the worst for richochets it will bounce of trees etc!
Click to expand...

I don't really think you have been reading what is going on here and I don't think you watched the video parts-man posted above. His bi-metal bullets mushroomed fine. I don't think they will mushroom as reliably at lower speeds as the copper jacketed stuff, but at close range while their velocity is still up there, they will somewhat mushroom. No one here is talking about hunting with fmj's.
 
If you read the manufacturer's sales documentation, All bullets apparently penetrate deeply, expand hugely, and retain much of their weight at all velocities.

Grease datasheets are like that too. It's frustrating from the point of view of trying to match a product to an application.

What I'd really like to see is a plot of retained energy vs distance traveled through a standardized medium, for a range of initial velocities. I haven't found that yet for any product, but hey, if anyone from Speer or Hornady is reading this, PM me. I'll happily sign any reasonably scoped NDA.

>marketed as hunting ammunition

I had understood that to be for import permit reasons. Same as for scopes.

It was explained to me that in a military application, bullets are intended to wound. Ideally you want the combatant you shoot to scream, thrash around and bleed all over the place while 2 or 3 people you haven't shot yet stop what they're doing to retrieve him. Then you want to tie up medical staff, transport, and operating rooms to work on him (each with their associated logistical burden). Then you want him to cost a whole bunch more money to rehab and care for etc.

In a hunting application, bullets are intended to kill quickly. Like in a Hay's code cowboy movie. *blam* "Ack!" -crescendo- *thud* -minor chord-.

Different tools for different goals.
 
Penetrate deeply - I agree
Expand at all velocities - I'm not so sure.

Most chaps seem to like doing the ballistic gel test at 25 metres
Where is the realism in that?

I'd like to see a terminal ballistics test for expansion between 150m to 250m with bi-metal projectiles
Anyone know of such a test? Please chime in and enlighten me....
 
Riflechair said:
Penetrate deeply - I agree
Expand at all velocities - I'm not so sure.

Most chaps seem to like doing the ballistic gel test at 25 metres
Where is the realism in that?

I'd like to see a terminal ballistics test for expansion between 150m to 250m with bi-metal projectiles
Anyone know of such a test? Please chime in and enlighten me....
Click to expand...

Some will figure out the approximate velocity at intended distances and load rounds to that velocity for testing. The reason it is done at short distance is to better the chances of a center mass hit. I understand the gel isn't cheap and is temp sensitive? If so I can see why a short range is ideal. I do think bimetal is less than ideal, its simply a cost saving thing. I don't know if you can even buy commercial bimetal bullets and they certainly aren't readily available in the hunting bullet market. If lead and copper weren't ideal I'm sure they wouldn't make up the majority of hunting bullets. As for my own experience, seeing what MFS X39 bimetal SP did in soft wet sand compared to other designs I balked at the thought of poking a deer with one. Lots of jacket seperation and generally mangled chunks of twisted metal. Wet sand pushes bullets past their intended limits so is no representation of what will happen in flesh. They may very well work ok but I think there are much better options for both X54 and X39 in copper jacketed factory loads for hunting.
 
Riflechair said:
Thanks man that video was helpful.
My problem is that most of the shots I take are around 200 to 300 metres
That big 203gr slug starts to really slow down around that range and I'm worried what that bi-metal jacket might do at lower velocities.
Click to expand...

I can see that slower velocity could cause an issue with expansion, for me I mostly bush hunt so closer range. I hope to do a test with the 203gr MFS stuff out of a Mosin shortly as well.
 
Another issue that is important right now that hasn't been mentioned:

Bimetal jackets make sparks and get red hot when they hit a rock.

Hot metal and sparks can start forest fires.

There should actually be a temporary ban on steel/bimetal jackets and steel core ammo when the fire danger rating is "extreme" in an area. Just like there is for binary and other explosive targets.
 
no I do not think you get it - bi- metal bullets made by Russians as a very cheap source of hardball for war purpose to improve penetration on certain solid structures as well as tumbling when slowing down to create more chance wound so more people taken out of fight
to take care of wounded.
If you believe one person and some you tube vid and do not take into account of why bullet manufactouers spend so much time on developing hunting bullets to do an ethical job Then I think you are narrow minded and cheap!!!
 
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