Idea for volume .223 precision loads

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MartyK2500

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I was pondering with this .223 precision/volume ammo idea, as I have most tools to get it up and running, would be just missing 500-600$ of equipment, looking for thoughts and opinions.
I may have overlooked something along the way.

Required equipment would be a Dillon RL550, equipped with forster full size benchrest and forster bullet seating dies.
For sure the classic roller handle, strong mount, bullet tray etc... for ergonomics.
Probably lee powder through die and lee crimp die.
On another table next to my 550 would be my FX120 with auto-throw/auto-trickle.
To the right of my press, a forster trimming station, with 3in1 head and power drill attached.

Reload sequence would go as followed, with brass that's already tumbled and annealed.

Station 1 full size resize and prime.
Remove from station 1 for a quick 3in1 trim.
Replace in station one and turn cartridge indexing wheel.
Station 2 pour powder charge which has been auto prepped in the FX120 while doing resizing/trimming
Station 3 bullet seat
station 4 crimp
When done in a seamless way, I would be having 4 brass casings going up each time I crank, doing effectively 4 tasks with 1 crank.

I imagined this scenario and can imagine it being quite quicker than a traditional single stage.
Slower than on my 650 for sure, but at a much better quality ratio.
It would be for precision 500M AR ammo, not a bolter as I already got full single stage for that type.

Someone already does this and/or is this making any sense?
 
I would prep the brass, size it and seat the primer before turning to the Dillon.

I would feed the Dillon primed brass.

I would prefer a 650 with a case feeder, but a 550 will work if you are only loading a 1000 or so per sitting.

The Dillon will dispense ball powder perfectly (plus or minus a tenth, with most being bang on.) A fine grained extruded powder will also work very well - like RL15 or N140.
 
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I am sitting on a few 8lb jugs of varget here, I can't or won't load anything else, once I saw how little it affected muzzle velocity with temperatures in my 308, I fell in love.
By experience that varget will dispense sporadically when done in a volumetric way.

If I do feed the 550 primed/resized brass, I could change the full length resize for a Dillon power trimmer.
Which could make the process even easier, but would need my brass to be prepped before.

I do have the 650 here and would need to buy a 550 to go the way I am thinking.
Lot's to think about, I don't want to waste money either if not needed to be wasted.

Edit : if I get a tool head for my 650 and a 223 conversion, I could effectively resize, trim/chamfer/deburr, prime single stage style.
Then give a run on my 650 for powder (with powder through die), seat and crimp.
It would save a few processes for speed, not quite as quick as expected, not as expensive either.
 
Lol I did a bunch of 223 and 9mm...well like 3000of each.......I hear you loud and clear on my 650 xl it was a 2 stage for the 9mm....and for the 223...it was a tool change over like 3 times ....deprime....rt1500 to trim ...and then resize....then super swage 600(Dillon) for the crimped primer pockets.....then anneal (with the annealeez)
In about 7..8 days I did all a couple of hours here ...couple of hours there .......
But now I’m thinking of going to a super 1050 for the bigger tool head and one more station on the tool head ....and possibly a mark 7...ahhh we’ll see
 
MartyK2500 said:
I was pondering with this .223 precision/volume ammo idea,

Reload sequence would go as followed, with brass that's already tumbled and annealed.

Station 1 full size resize and prime.
Click to expand...



well there goes your "precision" out the window...
 
667 said:
well there goes your "precision" out the window...
Click to expand...

I got a body size die and neck size die for my 900M 308, i am familiar with the concept.
Was presuming that a forster benchrest full resize die, for 223, for 500M max would be sufficient.

What’s your take on it?
I can’t see how I’d neck size on a progressive...
 
davide montini said:
Lol I did a bunch of 223 and 9mm...well like 3000of each.......I hear you loud and clear on my 650 xl it was a 2 stage for the 9mm....and for the 223...it was a tool change over like 3 times ....deprime....rt1500 to trim ...and then resize....then super swage 600(Dillon) for the crimped primer pockets.....then anneal (with the annealeez)
In about 7..8 days I did all a couple of hours here ...couple of hours there .......
But now I’m thinking of going to a super 1050 for the bigger tool head and one more station on the tool head ....and possibly a mark 7...ahhh we’ll see
Click to expand...

Yeah there’s always better and faster,
With a cost that comes with it...
 
MartyK2500 said:
I can’t see how I’d neck size on a progressive...
Click to expand...



'Might be able to get away with just setting up your die to do so...

The way I see it you can either have precision OR volume... You can't have both.


What i do for my AR is pre prep all my brass.
Cleaned, FL sized and trimmed. I do this in batches until I have a few thousand ready to go.
On my 550 the brass is primed, charged, bullet seated and crimped... I can crank out 400-500 an hour.

Bolt guns... Fired brass is neck sized, sometimes trimmed and put together on a single stage. If I'm feeling particularly picky flash holes get uniformed and de burred.
 
As far as bolt guns go, i pretty much got it covered.

That’s where i wanted to combine my experiences, between pure volume progressive 9mm, to pure precision single stage 308.

Annealing will be done every firing before hitting the progressive.
And myself, in 308, found that most my precision gains we’re from primers, powdering precision, and neck tension.

If i can define precision, i would consider 3/4moa with 77 SMKs to be excellent if barrel and reload process allows for it.

I know full size ain’t ideal, but that ammo is getting crimped since semi auto, i can’t see how neck size would help that much more.
Powdering, instead of using dillon hopper, i’d install a powder through die and powder off my FX120 scale.
Primers, still got to research if CCI BR primers are safe for auto guns.
 
Ok now it would seem to make more sense on my dillon 650, since i already have the press
Here is my process i think of using

1. Tumble, anneal
2. Full size resize with forster die on single stage press
3. Station 1 of 650 (or 2 if too bulky), dillon trimmer plugged to a vacuum
4. Station 2 prime, and use powder through die, powder using fx120
5. station 3 bullet seat, forster mic die
6. Station 4 crimp

I think i would be sacrificing very little in means of precision, while allowing 200-300 monthly round count without it being too painful.
I already do the 308 full single stage with the neck turning and all, it’s fun to reload, but certain months when i shoot over 200 rounds in a month it’s beginning to be hard work.
 
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I would do it in 2 stages on the 650. It can be pretty fast if you have a case feeder:
1. Tumble, anneal
2. On the 650: resize (whatever you decide, full length or neck), then trim. You have the sizing die in S1, trimmer in S3, and place something in S4, such as a Lee trimmer die with no trimmer. The goal here is just to create enough friction to keep the press 100% straight. By having cases in S1, S3 and S4, the whole thing is mostly symetrical. You could also use those dies in S2 and S5. It will do just as well as the best single stage.
3. Off the 650, tumble a bit or clean, to remove the lube. Then prime with hand primer. You can also skip trimming in step 1 and do it on a 3-1 trimmer off the press, especially if you have a giraud or something you prefer to the dillon
4. Back on the 650. If you decided to skip the priming at step 3, then prime here. Do Steps 4, 5 and 6 of your previous post. None of these steps require much force on the system, so no need for "fake" dies in other stations.

If you have a case tumbler, you can do this almost as fast as a 100% progressive setup.

If you decide to go with something like you first post, which requires removing the brass from the press, take a look at a hornady LnL, removing and inserting cases mid-progress on the hornady is really fast due to just the small spring retaining system. Not sure how fast it is on a 550/650.

In any case the bottleneck is really the pouring of the powder from the scale to the powder-through. If you find a way to make this really automatic then you'll have something. You're not the first one who wishes to use varget (or another stick powder) on a progressive.
 
Lifestyle has a lot to do with it, perspective of free time is different for everyone .
I work 55-60 hour weeks, and go to the range twice a week.
Current monthly round count at 150-200/month 308 and 1000-1200/month 9mm.
Want to add 200-300/month 5.56mm, but time is already a limited precious commodity for me.

Adding these 5.56mm in a single stage instead of partly progressive, means even less time with the familly.
 
If it was me shooting a service rifle match for the first time I would just buy some ammo. This way you can see how many pieces of your brass that you will recover. It has been many years since I shot service rifle, but if I remember correctly there isn't a lot of time between stages/butt changes to police your brass.
There are too many other things that need to be worked on like positional shooting, mag changes, rundowns, equipment etc. rather than making precision ammo. Any points that you may think that you will gain with match ammo will be lost if you fumble a mag change or have a stoppage and only mange to get 7-8 rounds on target instead of 10 rounds in any stage of the competition. I am sure as a competitive pistol shooter that you are will aware of this.

If you decide that you need to reload I would FL resize, anneal if you must but I wouldn't. I would pick a good ball powder that will throw accurately through whatever Dillion you have and not worry too much about making 3/4 MOA ammo. Remember the military guys are shooting issued ammo out of issued rifles.
 
As with pistol training, i can definitely see a dry fire aspect to it.
Even though i am not shooting IPSC seriously at the moment (now shooting a 140PF G17gen5, until my free time allows for travel for matches again), i still dry fire 4x 20 minute sessions per week.
Keeping on top of my draws and reloads is important, i will assume that service rifle guys do the same.

I have asked around, and yes brass will be lost, and in good quantities.
So lapua brass is a no go, which pretty much kills a big part of accurate ammo.
Still feel like using my 650 with a powder through die, to be able to ise my temperature insensitive varget.

With auto throw and auto trickle it’s dispensed under 15 seconds.
So it wouldn’t be too hard to pump a good quantity under 2 hours that way, and still keep my prefered powder.
Sitting on a few 8lb jugs anyways.
 
MartyK2500 said:
As with pistol training, i can definitely see a dry fire aspect to it.
Even though i am not shooting IPSC seriously at the moment (now shooting a 140PF G17gen5, until my free time allows for travel for matches again), i still dry fire 4x 20 minute sessions per week.
Keeping on top of my draws and reloads is important, i will assume that service rifle guys do the same.

I have asked around, and yes brass will be lost, and in good quantities.
So lapua brass is a no go, which pretty much kills a big part of accurate ammo.
Still feel like using my 650 with a powder through die, to be able to ise my temperature insensitive varget.

With auto throw and auto trickle it’s dispensed under 15 seconds.
So it wouldn’t be too hard to pump a good quantity under 2 hours that way, and still keep my prefered powder.
Sitting on a few 8lb jugs anyways.
Click to expand...

If I were you I wouldn't be bothered with loading 223/5.56's. AE bulk 223's can be had for $380~400 per 1000 these days, reloading 223 isn't saving much at all (that's assuming you get your brass back). I too own a 650 and currently it only sees usage of loading 9 only.

Unlike some, I don't enjoy reloading. If I can have someone loading my preferred ammo, and $$$ is not a problem at all, I would spend all of my reloading time on shooting. I bought 4 cases of 1000 AE 223 and plan on focusing on shooting next year without having to retrieve my brass.
 
MartyK2500 said:
Lifestyle has a lot to do with it, perspective of free time is different for everyone .
I work 55-60 hour weeks, and go to the range twice a week.
Current monthly round count at 150-200/month 308 and 1000-1200/month 9mm.
Want to add 200-300/month 5.56mm, but time is already a limited precious commodity for me.

Adding these 5.56mm in a single stage instead of partly progressive, means even less time with the familly.
Click to expand...

Thats why you get your kids loading primer tubes, and whatever else you need help with :)
 
Salmoncan said:
If I were you I wouldn't be bothered with loading 223/5.56's. AE bulk 223's can be had for $380~400 per 1000 these days, reloading 223 isn't saving much at all (that's assuming you get your brass back). I too own a 650 and currently it only sees usage of loading 9 only.

Unlike some, I don't enjoy reloading. If I can have someone loading my preferred ammo, and $$$ is not a problem at all, I would spend all of my reloading time on shooting. I bought 4 cases of 1000 AE 223 and plan on focusing on shooting next year without having to retrieve my brass.
Click to expand...

I used to dislike reloading too, big time.
As soon as i started reloading single stage for a bolt rifle 7 years later, i got hooked!
Every little process or step i added i saw a 1/16 moa improve on target, that’s where the addiction is.

For this 223, it’s a semi auto with furthest targets at 600M.
I don’t think any bulk ammo can serve me well here.
And factory ammo suited for this would cost me too much.
 
Salmoncan said:
If I were you I wouldn't be bothered with loading 223/5.56's. AE bulk 223's can be had for $380~400 per 1000 these days, reloading 223 isn't saving much at all (that's assuming you get your brass back). I too own a 650 and currently it only sees usage of loading 9 only.

Unlike some, I don't enjoy reloading. If I can have someone loading my preferred ammo, and $$$ is not a problem at all, I would spend all of my reloading time on shooting. I bought 4 cases of 1000 AE 223 and plan on focusing on shooting next year without having to retrieve my brass.
Click to expand...

I used to think this way when I started shooting.

Unfortunately the accuracy I typically get from cheap bulk ammunition isn’t good enough.Actually it isn’t really good enough for anything.

I quickly learned it’s not hard to outshoot cheap ammunition. Even offhand bulk AE 223 is insufficient for target practice.

Either get the more expensive ammunition or reload. There’s no other option.
 
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