IDPA Cover calls - interesting note

7.62mm said:
I have seen instances at practicality every IDPA match that I have attended, of purely "Subjective" calls by SO's, that could have gone either way, depending on ones "View" of the action.
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I've seen a few new SOs be a little on the zelous side when making calls. But I think by and large SOs miss the smaller stuff more often than not.

I think it is important to point out to SOs and shooters alike that in any situation where a call is at all boarderline, then the call should be on the side of the shooter.
If clubs have the body of SOs, there should be two to the line - one pulling double duty as score keeper and the RSO with the timer. This lessens the chances of instances where items are overlooked.

With regard to some infractions, you will have that in any sport where a 'referee' of sorts has to make a judgment call on the fly. Maybe one day IPSC or IDPA will be big enough to warrant instant replays.
 
Onagoth said:
I've been called for not taking 100% cover, a few times, even when I had mroe than 50% upper and 100% lower behind cover.

I didn't realize at the time that the procedural was unfair, but now I do.
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I'm an IDPA safety officer and am embarrassed to say that I find myself looking through the rule book a lot. I guess going once every two weeks is not enough. I am going to put some time aside to memorize that d$#n thing!
 
Two cover calls I make a lot is if a shooter slices the pie wrong and leans out to far. Or they have a FTN or even forget to engage a target and step out from behind cover.

With low cover I find the biggest issue is no one wants to get down on one knee. Hunching over just won't cut it.

As for ducking back behind cover to reload I find that comes from training else where, for places where the cardboard shoots back.


Remember its 50% of your upper torso.
Your torso = what's covered by an untucked t-shirt
Upper torso = top of your shoulders to to the bottom of your boiler room.


For the most part we give benefit of the doubt to the shooter. We also try to keep in mind when running an unsanctioned match 5-10 of the shooters showing up are IPSC shooters not that familiar with the rules and want to give IDPA a try and we'll score the match accordingly.


Bottom line for us is, lets keep it safe and fun for new and old.
 
cbabes said:
I'm an IDPA safety officer and am embarrassed to say that I find myself looking through the rule book a lot. I guess going once every two weeks is not enough. I am going to put some time aside to memorize that d$#n thing!
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You can come study with us this weekend if you're up to it and off those protein shakes. :D
 
Canuck44 said:
Dear god not a swinger! Last year I actually got thru a stage with a swinger without a FTN. My misses on swingers are legendary. You should see me go after three of them! It truy is a sight to behold. I look like a grandfather clock on steroids.

Take Care

Bob
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LMAO!

I think I'll bring along the video camera tomorrow, lol.

I did get a chance once this summer to try the Texas Star. My first try I got all 6 plates with 7 shots in 13 seconds, not too bad. However, it all went down hill after that, I think my second best time was 38 seconds, lol.

Sorry for getting off topic guys!:redface:
 
7.62mm said:
I am sure most SO's are trying to do the best they can. But, ego's also come into play. I have witnessed, long time shooters able to get away with more things, because the SO doesn't, or won't call them on it. I have witnessed seasoned SO's going harder at newer shooters, and letting other long time shooters doing the same thing, skate. Like I said, the subjective nature of the rules allow for this.
There is no getting around it.
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There most certainly is getting around it, you report it to your area contact and he or she will deal with it accordingly, there is no favorites and there better not be, everyone should be treated equally.
 
beltfed said:
While I agree that course design is important, in most cases a good SO can spot guys not slicing the pie right if they're positioned correctly. Having another SO as score keeper and a second set of eyes watching for cover and sequence is handy too.
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Beltfed,
I most certainly agree that a second set of eyes is of great value. I think that my point really revolves around the fact that you can "slice" and still be within the cover requirement for more than one target at a time.

Like Bob, I can't remember the last time that I gave a cover call for an above the waist violation. It is always waist down or so far out of cover that it is almost the whole body, which includes below the waist.

I do agree that if you are "pieing properly" the competitors upper body will generally shift. Just remember that the penalty is for the amount of your exposure, not for the lack of your repositioning.

Sandy
 
7.62mm said:
This is part of the problem with the ?DPA's. Some calls are purely subjective, and rely on the positioning of the SO,and the ego of said individual.....who is to measure what is 50%....pretty impossible in a fluid and moving sport IMHO!!
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Easy fix in most cases... As long as the shooters feet are behind cover he's GTG... I figure if a guy can lean out sooo farr without toppling over and still get his hits... Good for him. If he tries to lean out too far he'll have to step out and that's no good. CoF design and target placement come into play here as well...

7.62mm said:
Don't get me wrong, I enjoy shooting ?DPA's, but the scoring and ruling system seems to be too subjective, to be taken seriously,if you are the competitive type!
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I disagree... The scoring is just as subjective in IPSC or any other sport. Everyone has seen calls made/not made that makes y'go.. "WTF?"
It's the human element that we'll never be able to completely eliminate, but if a shooter wants to challenge a decision and can come up with a good rational... Go for it. No harm in askin' :)
 
easy said:
... besides, I bit of purposely induced stress makes for a more realistic match. Yes?

I think Procedural Pete should make more like a drill sergeant and yell at shooters like a blast from the past. Cover, or not. :D
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Surely this is said in jest. As an RO/SO or whatever the designation as an official it is not for myself or anyone else to influence the outcome by my actions or inactions . We should be there simply to insure safety and adherance to the rules.
 
Weeman said:
As an RO/SO or whatever the designation as an official it is not for myself or anyone else to influence the outcome by my actions or inactions
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As long as the RO/SO behaves the same with each person, exactly how they conduct the match does not affect the competitive outcome. Sometimes part of the job - as defined in the COF - is to introduce stressors to see how the competitors react. You can do that any number of ways ranging from running the competitor to tire them, to pyrotechnics to strobes to hollering at them.
 
acrashb said:
As long as the RO/SO behaves the same with each person, exactly how they conduct the match does not affect the competitive outcome. Sometimes part of the job - as defined in the COF - is to introduce stressors to see how the competitors react. You can do that any number of ways ranging from running the competitor to tire them, to pyrotechnics to strobes to hollering at them.
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Not shooting IDPA, period. None of our stages are to be designed to introduce "stressors". Life is exciting enough. Affiliated clubs using pyrotechnics or strobe lights in the manner you suggest would find themselves on the outside looking in very quickly.

Take Care

Bob
 
Canuck44 said:
Not shooting IDPA, period. None of our stages are to be designed to introduce "stressors". Life is exciting enough. Affiliated clubs using pyrotechnics or strobe lights in the manner you suggest would find themselves on the outside looking in very quickly.

Take Care

Bob
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In my area (NW USA) those kind of stages are sometimes done, but only as optional side stages and not scored in the match. The same format is used if someone want to put a long gun into a stage.

Sandy
 
Canuck44 said:
Not shooting IDPA, period. None of our stages are to be designed to introduce "stressors". Life is exciting enough. Affiliated clubs using pyrotechnics or strobe lights in the manner you suggest would find themselves on the outside looking in very quickly.

Take Care

Bob
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And here I was searching for the "Stressors" chapter in the IDPA rule book, LOL, I was wondering if the copy I was reading was outdated or something:p
 
Canuck44 said:
Not shooting IDPA, period. None of our stages are to be designed to introduce "stressors". Life is exciting enough. Affiliated clubs using pyrotechnics or strobe lights in the manner you suggest would find themselves on the outside looking in very quickly.
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I'm curious as to why. I don't see a spot in the rules where the COF may not introduce elements to raise the competitor's adrenaline level.

In fact, referring to the opening line in the rulebook, "... a shooting sport that simulates self-defense scenarios and real life encounters", surely things like a run, strobe, or "crack" from a legal pyrotechnic would be desirable?

Particularly as many people think of this as adding to the entertainment value, which in the end is why they participate.
 
Weeman said:
Surely this is said in jest. As an RO/SO or whatever the designation as an official it is not for myself or anyone else to influence the outcome by my actions or inactions . We should be there simply to insure safety and adherance to the rules.
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Respectfully no, :D I stated this because we are a group of diverse shooters involved in a discipline "similar" to IDPA and we do this in Canada with altered rules anyway.

Many of us have some history together and we shoot for laughs and s**tz and giggles, not so much for score. The IDPA match the OP is referring to is in fact ODPL. This is where he was dinged for cover.

I mean, fine and dandy for the newcomer who wants to do everything by the book and see where they stand in the grand scheme of things, good scores, form, stance, etc., I respect that, but many of us don't care what the rules are, so long as they're applied evenly for everyone and that everyone goes home alive.

If one knows how to shoot, he/she can shoot under any condition. You don't get specific sets of rules before you venture out into the real world. Isn't IDPA a simulation of this real world. Sometimes bright lights and crackers go off.

Some of us look forward to that little bit of stress induced adrenaline. :p

If I wanted a serious game, I'd trade my guns for clubs and take up golf. :D Seriously.
 
Due to many of the previous quote's I must agree with 7.62's earlier statement on objectivity in scoring. Unless the elements of a stage are repeatable in the exact same manner for every competitor you cannot fairly compare competitors. If they are not repeated exactly the same for each competitor you open yourself up to a mountain of complaints,confusion,frustration and ultimatly people leaving the sport. Resulting in the death of your sport due to lack of competitors. Or is this just the shinny version of the sport?
 
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