IDPA - holster certification question

[Canuck44]

I am an IDPA SO myself and I may be wrong but I thought the recent orientation course was now mandatory.

No, continues to be optional. The shooting exercises have been listed as a minimum with the option to do more should the Instructor choose to do so. While we encourage clubs to provide the IDPA Orientation course it is not mandatory.

Some instructors ask the new shooters to view the video on the main page of the IDPA Canada website before attending the class. The video will give the student a heads up on IDPA style shooting.

Take Care

Bob

 

[Stevo]

I was just inboxed and it is not mandatory. Should be imo.

Why?

 

[beltfed]

in our club you just show up, there is no certification course you have to take. you just have to be safe

If you are refering to the ATHL, then no we don't just let people 'show up'.

Our policy is:

We strongly encourage new shooter orientations, but that is not necessarily a requirement.

If people choose not to partake in new shooter orientations, they must provide proof of other forms of adequate formal training with firearms and specifically pistols/revolvers and show clear proficiency with holstering and handling a side arm.

 

[heavenIsAlie]

i never had any training nor did they require proof when i started (hell i still dont have formal holster or other training) and ive never seen someone turned away because they didnt have training. someone unsafe is a different story (had to DQ someone for muzzle control once).

morons with guns generally dont show up to organized matches of any sort. seen lots of people come, who just recently got holsters for their pistols and they were allowed to shoot without any formal training or the orientation course. caused no problems and they were safe.

but if that is the requirements i guess i should take myself and 2 friends off the list for the next match, i know we have no formal training to show proof of

 

[TIM_COX]

If you are refering to the ATHL, then no we don't just let people 'show up'.

Our policy is:

We strongly encourage new shooter orientations, but that is not necessarily a requirement.

If people choose not to partake in new shooter orientations, they must provide proof of other forms of adequate formal training with firearms and specifically pistols/revolvers and show clear proficiency with holstering and handling a side arm.

So if the shooter take the "new shooter" orientation as outlined from idpacanada you are issuing a "holster" certification ??

I hate to be a bother but what lesson plan are you using to instruct the shooter on how to draw and fire from a holster since the "orientation" course does not even discuss drawing from a holster ??

as an aside here is one of the better sites I have seen that demonstrates and explains using a holster.... thank Albertacoyotecaller for it.

http://www.wikihow.com/Do-a-Tactical-Quickdraw-With-a-Pistol

 

[Onagoth]

My intention at our club is to offer a NSO orientation course. It covers everything from learning about IDPA to safely drawing from a holster to moving with a loaded gun.

I use a simple lesson plan involving some classroom time as well as dry and live firing.

IMO, there are a few points with regards to the actual holster part which need to be drilled and practiced. After that, a person is good to start shooting matches.

A certificate is issued.

 

[cbabes]

Why?

Why isn't it mandatory or why do I think it should be? Call me paranoid but I think you have baited me.

Here are my opinions on either answer:

Why it isn't mandatory:
Too many think they are gifted and are very selfish, not wanting to teach the "less gifted" because of laziness and it cuts into their own shooting time. These are just my opinions.

Why I think it should be mandatory:
Maybe most shooters know how to be safe target shooting but drawing from a holster and moving around is different. Sweeping cement walls and floors for example. Spending some time getting comfortable with a holster under the guidance of an instructor just makes sense.

OK......

 

[7.62mm]

Also, governments and Law administrators, love certificates, almost as much as they like a certificate being available, but not administered!

Clubs, IMHO, are really opening themselves up to a world of hurt, if someone shoots themselves, and/or shoots someone else due to negligence, especially if there is a program/course in place that may have prevented a Negligent act! A base line of competency is never a bad thing. Plus a course can weed out any blatantly asshated individual, before they subject the rest of the shooting population with their stupidity......all these or just my opinions, for what they are worth!

 

[TIM_COX]

I don't disagree that TRAINING is a valuable tool in the "safety" belt.... what I do not like is the current trendof organizations giving the clubs a brief outline of a course and then letting the club teach it to that "clubs" standards....

7.62 talks about liability and such, this is one of the main concerns I also have.... if an organization or provincial goverment body requires "holster certification" who out thier is actually "certified" to teach it..... where are the proper lesson plans and who is the "sanctioning" body that backstops and certifies the instructors training.

a little background, I have been an instructor of industrial safety courses since 1997, as part of my instrictor certification I have "Errors and omissions" insurance thru the agency that certifies my instructor status, they provide me with instructor updates and properly designed course material and lesson plans as well as student handouts and other course material to include professionally produced DVD's and other visual aids.....

what I am getting at, is who is backstopping and who is ensuring the "quality" of holster certification training in canada ? who will stand behind the instructor when some student who injured himself or someone else and points his finger and says "but thats the way I was shown" ..... without proper lesson plans and consistency of courses the instructor has nothing to fall back on to prove that he did or did not recommend or do something unsafe.

this is one of my rants, we have several organizations in canada (IPSC/PPC/IDPA/CAS, ETC) and yet the only one that uses proper adult learning skills and proper teaching techniques is IPSC... and even there the audits on the instructors need to be stepped up because I hear that different instructors do not follow the instructor manual as closely as they should. I have been thinking on this for the past year and have talked to and quizzed several black badge instructors and each of them says the course as laid out by IPSC is good... if the instructor follows the procedures as outlined. (that does not mean the course could ot do without an update)

so again, who is insuring that quaity of course and quality of instruction is being maintained and who backstops the instructors liabilty wise ? just because someone is a good competitor does not make them a good instructor... and just because a competitor is not "competitive", he may make an awesome instructor because he can explain the fundementals in a way the students understand.

 

[TIM_COX]

another thought...

has anyone asked thier clubs liability insurance provider what they think about the subject of clubs offering "certification" ?

 

[Stevo]

My intention at our club is to offer a NSO orientation course. It covers everything from learning about IDPA to safely drawing from a holster to moving with a loaded gun.

I use a simple lesson plan involving some classroom time as well as dry and live firing.

IMO, there are a few points with regards to the actual holster part which need to be drilled and practiced. After that, a person is good to start shooting matches.

A certificate is issued.

How much will you charge for this course? How often will you offer it? Will it be mandatory before someone can start shooting IDPA? A certificate from IDPA or from your club?

Why isn't it mandatory or why do I think it should be? Call me paranoid but I think you have baited me.

Here are my opinions on either answer:

Why it isn't mandatory:
Too many think they are gifted and are very selfish, not wanting to teach the "less gifted" because of laziness and it cuts into their own shooting time. These are just my opinions.

Why I think it should be mandatory:
Maybe most shooters know how to be safe target shooting but drawing from a holster and moving around is different. Sweeping cement walls and floors for example. Spending some time getting comfortable with a holster under the guidance of an instructor just makes sense.

OK......

I wasn't trying to bait you at all. I wanted to know why you thought it should be mandatory.

We keep talking about "safety", but teaching the IDPA rules and how to shoot a CoF have nothing to do with safety. Make sure the shooter lives by the four firearm safety rules and can draw a pistol safely and they will learn the rest at practices or club matches.

What does "draw a pistol safely" mean? It's a good question. I (and ACC) teach a specific 3 step process. That's our standard and it's PR's de facto "way". Can it be done differently? Sure. So what does an SO need to see? IMO they need to see:

- finger stays out of trigger guard, drawing and reholstering.
- finger stays off the trigger till the sights are on the target
- muzzle crosses no body parts.

It doesn't take long to teach that.

 

[beltfed]

i never had any training nor did they require proof when i started (hell i still dont have formal holster or other training) and ive never seen someone turned away because they didnt have training.

seen lots of people come, who just recently got holsters for their pistols and they were allowed to shoot without any formal training or the orientation course. caused no problems and they were safe.

It is my understanding that orientations of some form or fashion has taken place in the past. Massimo is a fine instructor, as are a number of club members in our ranks. Not one of them would allow participation without new shooters showing clear competence. This is a basic requirement that is needed and as I'm sure you'd appreciate being a fellow competitor and SO.

but if that is the requirements i guess i should take myself and 2 friends off the list for the next match, i know we have no formal training to show proof of

You have experience and show clear competence. I'm not sure of your friends, but if they are brand new I'd recommend you contact Jim to have their skills evaluated and have them go through an orientation.

Match day is no place for new shooters to be introduced to the draw stroke; it hasn't in the past and that has not changed.

As a member of the executive for our club, it is a duty of care I owe our current members, and new prospective shooters to ensure they are engaging in the sport in a safe and fun environment for all.

 

[beltfed]

So if the shooter take the "new shooter" orientation as outlined from idpacanada you are issuing a "holster" certification ??]

No. We will introduce new shooters to the IDPA orientation course and put them through basic drills and teachings about holsters, draw stroke, etc. and have a condenced orientation shoot with a classification to round it out.
We would not issue a 'certification', but those that chose to partake would be noted for having an acceptable level of competence at the club level. Our training cadre consists of serving and former members of the CF, CPS, other agencies and noted shooting sports with programs that are all highly regarded as providing the necessary knowledge and skills so that our members can participate with the knowledge that new shooters who join us are competent in the craft.

I hate to be a bother but what lesson plan are you using to instruct the shooter on how to draw and fire from a holster since the "orientation" course does not even discuss drawing from a holster ??

This is something that is fairly new to our club, and as such we have no formal lesson plan. However, we do have something that exceeds 100 years of combined formal firearms instruction from the members that would participate as instuctors.
The orientation shoot would parallel to an extent the Black Badge course offered by IPSC, but tailored to our sport.

 

[Onagoth]

How much will you charge for this course? How often will you offer it? Will it be mandatory before someone can start shooting IDPA? A certificate from IDPA or from your club?

Course costs $5, offered a couple times per year, or as needed. It is required at our club that the shooter have some sort of holster qualification before competing in club matches. The certificate is an IDPA certificate.

 

[Stevo]

If you are refering to the ATHL, then no we don't just let people 'show up'.

Our policy is:

We strongly encourage new shooter orientations, but that is not necessarily a requirement.

If people choose not to partake in new shooter orientations, they must provide proof of other forms of adequate formal training with firearms and specifically pistols/revolvers and show clear proficiency with holstering and handling a side arm.

What would you do if you hosted a shoot and had 20 IDPA members that you didn't know show up?

Would the proof of adequate formal training and showing clear proficiency be part of the registration process? If I showed you my IDPA card with the SO sticker on it would that be sufficient?

 

[Steve David]

If I showed you my IDPA card with the SO sticker on it would that be sufficient?

This would be proof of formal training if you had the SO sticker on your card, would it not?

As far as a new or unfamiliar shooter goes, is it not in your best interest as the MD/SO/League Rep. of a match to ensure that all shooters are proficient in the use of holsters and can manipulate holster draws and things such as mag changes in a safe manner? I for one always ask shooters that I do not know who attend my matches what sort of holster qualification they have, even if they present an IDPA membership card, and if I am not comfortable with what I hear, I will take them aside or ask one of my SO's to take them aside and ask them to demonstrate what they need to know to shoot the match safely.

 

[Stevo]

This would be proof of formal training if you had the SO sticker on your card, would it not?

As far as a new or unfamiliar shooter goes, is it not in your best interest as the MD/SO/League Rep. of a match to ensure that all shooters are proficient in the use of holsters and can manipulate holster draws and things such as mag changes in a safe manner? I for one always ask shooters that I do not know who attend my matches what sort of holster qualification they have, even if they present an IDPA membership card, and if I am not comfortable with what I hear, I will take them aside or ask one of my SO's to take them aside and ask them to demonstrate what they need to know to shoot the match safely.

A drivers license is also proof of formal training and it's as relevant to "holster certification" as the IDPA SO course is. Nowhere in my SO course were we taught how to draw a handgun or how to teach IDPA shooters how to draw, beyond observing they follow the 4 rules.

Beltfed referred to "adequate" formal training, not just formal training. I was trying to determine what that meant. I might like to come to Calgary and shoot sometime and I need to know what paperwork has to come with me.

Of course it's in our best interests to have safe shooters. I've never said anything to the contrary.

 

[TIM_COX]

is the training recent, relevant and realistic...

 

[Steve David]

A drivers license is also proof of formal training and it's as relevant to "holster certification" as the IDPA SO course is.

So is a pilots license, but you still have to do a flying exam as you have to do a driving exam for a drivers license and it is mandatory to have formal training as well before you can do said exams.

What exactly is the problem here with the New Shooter Orientation? Really what is the problem with initiating holster training for new shooters and how did this thread go from a few shooters asking about how to get into IDPA and inquiring about how to get holster qualified to this BS?

 

[Onagoth]

Before this thread gets totally out of control, I might add that holster certification seems to be somewhat of a Canadian concept. I've shot matches in the states, and even without certifications (not required in most places), nobody died.

The holster courses I think should act as a safety orientation, things to practice and work on, things to remember. Not necessarily a guarantee of someone's competence. Newly 'qualified' shooters should go slow through CoF for the first couple matches while developing safety skills. The concepts of shooting on the move, unholstering, reloading, muzzle and trigger finger control need to be practiced outside of matches as well.

It is usually pretty obvious in the first few seconds that a person is either 'unqualified' or unsafe. If someone shows up to a match that you haven't seen before and they say they are holster qualified, just keep an extra eye on them, nothing invasive or offensive, just enough to figure out if they are ok.

Note that I use qualified in quotations as that seems to be the bone of contention.