IDPA Optics Division/ IPSC OPeb Division/IPSC PO Division

Canuck44

Canuck44

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I spent the summer playing with a stock New Edition with a dovetail optic mounted Vortex Viper. Understand this gun was box stock. DA pull was heavy and it had the stock recoil spring.

I have to say I just didn't get a warm and fuzzy with this set up. About the same time I found where S&W is offering a milled slide and ported barrel set up with a 5" ported barrel. Soooooo having a 40cal M&P Pro with the full Apex FSS set up that I never shoot, a 40cal FS Stock gun and a Pro Series 9MM I began to think of the possibilities.

For IPSC Open:

M&P 9MM Ported barrel & Optic slide sitting on the frame of my Apex FSS M&P

For IDPA Optic Division

M&P 9MM non ported barrel with the ported kit slide with Optic sitting on the Apex FSS modified frame.

For IPSC PO Division

M&P 9MM non ported barrel with the bone stock frame from the 40 cal FS gun.

The only ruling I might want to get is whether or not the ported optic ready slide from the factory would be deemed legal for IPSC PO Division.

The issue might be the cut on top of the slide for the ported barrel which will not be used obviously as the barrel will be a stock 5" S&W barrel.

The advantage I see in using the M&P is you have co-witness irons to work with. One thing I found with the dovetail mount is it creates a higher sight plain. The 2nd thing I found was I was always chasing the dot, something I think with more experience you would tend not to do. The co witness would help in that regard as the front sight when aligned more or less with the rear would bring the dot on plain faster. I have heard guys talk about this issue in the US. Guys who, like me are just c Class type shooters.

Other observations from playing with the Optic this summer.

1, The Optic and mount add weight to the slide which cause the slides movement to slow noticeably. A lighter recoil spring would be a must for serious use.

2. The Optic sight does take time to get used to. It does not make the gun an instant ray gun. I found myself chasing the dot with the gun rather than allowing the dot to settle back to the center of the sight. As time went on I did less of this. It was here that I decided there might be an advantage to have a co-witness sight arrangement.

3. Having the Optic resting in a dedicated frame mount and not using the dovetail had real advantages as the optic dot would be closer to where your iron sights normally would be. Note the M&P co-witness sights are higher than normal. The slide plus Optic would be lighter than a dovetail mount plus optic. This should make for a more reliable gun when using minor ammunition.

I have all winter to play with the parts before getting out to test the set up. I realize the Open Division setup is never going to be competitive with true Open guns but it will be fun to see how close I can come to some.

The Optic Division in IDPA has been a slow starter in the US as has the USPSA CO Division. IPSC PO Division gets it's start in 2018. We shall see how the three closely matched division do in their respective sports. I think there are more reasons than aging eyes that cause older shooters to leave the Action Shooting sports and the Optic Divisions may or may not draw them back, We shall see.

Take Care

Bob
 
I would err on the side of caution. If a gun is not on the production list, it cannot be used for IPSC production (and therefore by extension, for IPSC Production Optics).

This does extend to configurations of the gun. The barrel/slide/frame combination would have to be a factory-available option before it is allowed. I know next to nothing about M&Ps, so this is only a very high-level word of caution. From the sounds of it, you've had to mix components to have a non-ported barrel, non-custom modified optic ready slide. Unless the optic ready slide came with a production legal barrel (non-ported), you cannot swap a barrel in.

A frame-mounted optic would not qualify for IPSC production optics as we will be implementing it in Canada.
 
Unregistered thanks for the reply. The barrel is a stock M&P " barrel from my M&P Pro. The slide kit from S&W is just a M&P Pro V Tec slide cut by S&W for an Optic so that part should be legal The concern I have is for the two factory cuts for the use of a ported barrel on the slide. The slide itself is all S&W and is identical to the slide used on the CORE model but for the two cuts for the ported barrel. With the exception of the two cuts the gun would be identical in every respect to the CORE version. I know I am on shaky ground.

The frame mounted slide idea is not going to be approved for this division anywhere in IPSC world IMHO.

I do know the dovetail mounted optic guns are going to require a light recoil spring. The extra weight of the Optic and mount has an affect on how the slide functions.

Take Care

Bob
 
Bob...using that stock M&P and barrell with the other S&W slide is not allowed under the current IPSC Production Optic rules (it MUST be only a stock gun as is offered for sale by the factory...no swapping barrells, slides etc)...you could use an M&P CORE for example as offered by factory

The frame mounted slide (ie custom slide cut for direct optic mount) IS approved under Germany, Austria and Switzerland rules for IPSC Production Optics (along with 1000 gram weight limit which basically means polymer striker fired guns only)...they are going with a different format than most of the rest of the world other than the Nordic 4 countries which have their own set of rules
 
Appendix D4:16 - Original parts and components offered by the OFM as standard equipment, or as an option, for a specific model handgun on the IPSC approved handgun list are permitted, subject to the following:

16.1 Modifications to them, other than minor detailing (the removal of burrs and/or adjustments unavoidably required in order to fit replacement OFM parts or components), are prohibited. Other prohibited modifications include those which facilitate faster reloading (e.g. flared, enlarged and/or add-on magwells, etc.), changing the original color and/or finish of a handgun, and/or adding stripes, stippling or other embellishments.
 
Trinimon said:
Appendix D4:16 - Original parts and components offered by the OFM as standard equipment, or as an option, for a specific model handgun on the IPSC approved handgun list are permitted, subject to the following:

16.1 Modifications to them, other than minor detailing (the removal of burrs and/or adjustments unavoidably required in order to fit replacement OFM parts or components), are prohibited. Other prohibited modifications include those which facilitate faster reloading (e.g. flared, enlarged and/or add-on magwells, etc.), changing the original color and/or finish of a handgun, and/or adding stripes, stippling or other embellishments.
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So if I read what both of you have said I should be legal because the PO gun is as it would come from the factory in the form of a CORE model. The only exception would be the two cuts in the ported S&W slide that was done by the factory to facilitate their ported version of the M&P CORE. That should be legal given you can use CZ parts from one model of the 75B series and use them in the SP-01 guns and still be Production legal. Correct? Please comment if you think otherwise and why.

All the parts in question are unmodified S&W M&P parts.

Take Care

Bob
 
race1911 said:
The frame mounted slide (ie custom slide cut for direct optic mount) IS approved under Germany, Austria and Switzerland rules for IPSC Production Optics (along with 1000 gram weight limit which basically means polymer striker fired guns only)...they are going with a different format than most of the rest of the world other than the Nordic 4 countries which have their own set of rules
Click to expand...

The frame mounted guns do not use the slide to mount the optic do they not. It was my understanding the countries you quote are suggesting only pistols with slides with cut outs done by the factory. The 1000 gram limit would certainly make their divisions polyner guns only. Considering the Walther is from Germany and the Glock is from Austria this is hardly surprising. It is about as self serving as CZ and Tanfanglio and their surrogates championing the 5# minimum trigger pull which pretty much excludes the striker fired guns in IPSC Production other than for the likes of Bob Vogel. For the life of me why IPSC holds onto this canard is beyond me. Keep it for Production so there is a place for the DA/SA guns to play but there is hardly a need to carry it over to the Optic Division.

From my limited experience, and it is limited, I suspect the polymer guns and particularly those that provide co-witness ability will outperform the steel DA/SA guns in the hands of Marksman/Sharpshooter - B/C Class shooters. If the slides are lightened enough - see PPQ M2 Match they will be more reliable as well. Too, they will be far less expensive to kit out. If the Optic Divisions take off in all threeaction shooting sports it will be interesting to see how it all shakes out.

Thanks for you opinions. I may have to just mount a Viper on my PPQ Match if I want to play IPSC PO Division and be done with it. I think I will maintain the M&P set up with the Apex trigger for IDPA CO Division. I was hoping to use the M&P platform because of the co-witness ability.

Take Care

Bob
 
Canuck44 said:
So if I read what both of you have said I should be legal because the PO gun is as it would come from the factory in the form of a CORE model. The only exception would be the two cuts in the ported S&W slide that was done by the factory to facilitate their ported version of the M&P CORE. That should be legal given you can use CZ parts from one model of the 75B series and use them in the SP-01 guns and still be Production legal. Correct? Please comment if you think otherwise and why.

All the parts in question are unmodified S&W M&P parts.

Take Care

Bob
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One would think so, as far as Standard Div goes. I mean, S&W makes an non-ported barrel for the same model and ported slides are allowed in Standard. IPSC doesn't list the M&P Ported CORE models on their approved list. If I'm not mistaken, ported/lightened slides aren't allowed in Production and Classic but I could be wrong. Gonna have to dig out my little red book.... :p
 
Ported and lightened slides are allowed only in pistols which come that way factory configured and also on the production list. Not if they are done custom or assembled with parts in a way that is not available from the factory.
 
Unregistered_ said:
Ported and lightened slides are allowed only in pistols which come that way factory configured and also on the production list. Not if they are done custom or assembled with parts in a way that is not available from the factory.
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That would suggest I am on solid ground. I do appreciate all of your comments.

Take Care

Bob
 
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