IDPA/PPC at Spruce Grove Gun Club?

[pepsicola]

B, to put it simply "IDPA HQ" recommends that you do a new shooter orientation ... they do not demand it and they do not require it.

Page 57 of the rule book,

IDPA HQ strongly recommends that clubs appoint an experienced
shooter to administer a basic safety program for new competitors
who have not competed in any action shooting, practical shooting,
or other shooting discipline that requires drawing a firearm from a
holster and movement

I am involved with a club who is an affiliated IDPA and as of yet we have had ZERO issues after 3 years of shooting IDPA, literally hundreds of thousands of rounds down range with ZERO accidents or near Misses.....

alot of the people in this thread are thinking what they do now is what they did then.... they look at what they have and say, "wow i wish we did this when I started" but for the most part it is all bull.... except for ontario, 90% of the shooters in canada and probably 90%+ of the shooters in the USA walked onto a range and started shooting IDPA.

here are some things you can do to limit the risk for new shooters till both you and them are confident in thier skills....

1) start them shooting IDPA with gun in hand, it takes one aspect of safety out of the equation and allows them to learn to enguage multiple targets and movement without having to worry about the draw, or the load and make ready reholster.... it gives them a boost of confidence and allows them to become comfortable in the "game" before youbring in the holster.... let them shoot a few nights this way or until they are comfortable, recommend that they practice the draw and the reholster at home with an empty gun. (we add +2 seconds to overall time for a no holster shooter to even the playing field, since we keep score on everything we shoot)

2) get the new shooter to come out early if theycan and work with them, have them draw and fire 2 rounds at the target, reholster and repeat... all under the buzz of the timer..... a simple drill that will enhance their muscle memory and give them confidence.

3) be UNFORGIVING about finger on trigger.... call them on it EVERY time.... be nice but stern about it.... they will learn quicker that way then of you give them a pass. a lotof new shootes like to "finger f*ck" the trigger.... call them on it every time in a stern voice... do not berate them, don't argue with them.... just call it as you see it and remember your call is what it is. (no need to DQ or anything, this is a learning curve for everyone)

seriously if you want to talk about this more PM me and I can give you some pointers... shooting is perhaps the safest shooting sport in canada and as long as your preach common sense, and restrain the excitment of new shooters who are excited to be participating in this sport your club will grow and do it safely..... common sense and a calm authoritive demeanor.

 

[Canuck44]

Gentlemen first and foremost the requirement for any pre-qualification for shooting action handgun sports including IDPA is left to the discretion of the IDPA clubs &/or ranges &/or by the CFO.

pepsicola I am not going to argue percentages with your but I do know more than one IDPA club in the US who certainly run new shooters through some form of pre-qualification either via week-end course or pre-match instruction. It is a bit of a stretch to assume a new shooter, never having shot IDPA, is going to understand the fundamentals of the sport, basic rules and safety concerns. These are often dealt with via week-end orientation courses. Several clubs have videos, we have one posted on the main page of the IDPA Canada website that my friend Capel produced for his club in the southern US.

We have prepared, and will shortly distribute to our clubs across Canada a two day NSO course. This course is certainly optional, but is strongly recommended, for use by the clubs. The presentation has been reviewed by HQ and our Area Contacts.

What we all want is our sport to be shot in the safest manner possible by informed shooters. We are playing with toys that can be lethal in a heartbeat and painful in a second. We won't stop accidents from happening but we at least we can attempt to reduce the risk.

Take Care

Bob

 

[B]

I have no problems with safety. It is a huge concern in all aspects of shooting. On the same note some people take it too far. A guy with 20,000+ rounds can be a hell of a lot safer than any Noob. Then again plenty of new shooters are extremely cautious, they aren't competing and won't be anytime soon so they are happy to take things slow. Same can be said for the opposite though I suppose. I have never seen a "jittery" shooter. I have no issues with myself and other more experienced shooters using discretion as to who is fit to shoot and who isn't, some people have nothing but issues with that though...

 

[Canuck44]

I have no issues with using discretion as to who is fit to shoot and who isn't, some people have nothing but issues with that though...[/

B to start IDPA at Spruce Grove you do need a certified SO in residence. As Albertacoyote has indicated one of the best ways is to gather a group of interested shooters together and host a Safety Officer class. You will at the end of the two day session have a group of qualified SO's who will understand the game of IDPA, how it is shot and what the rules are and how they are enforced. It is a win win situation.

Safety at any range or from the perspective of organized shooting disciplines is paramount and trumps what ever feelings one has for their personal need for basic safety instruction. Clubs and ranges set their own standard for conduct of their members, sometimes with a push from the CFO.

Take Care

Bob

 

[pepsicola]

I have no problems with safety. It is a huge concern in all aspects of shooting. On the same note some people take it too far. A guy with 20,000+ rounds can be a hell of a lot safer than any Noob. Then again plenty of new shooters are extremely cautious. I have no problem with using discretion as to who is fit to shoot and who isn't, some people have nothing but problems with that though...

you would be surprised, usually the newbs are the safer of the bunch, the know it all who thinks they can shoot are usually the worst....

safety is everyones job and everyone is to be held accountable for thier actions... do what you feel is comfortable, get some buddies together and just do it.

the more time you spend talking about it here the less time your going to enjoy shooting it, we had 20 idpa practice nights last year, this year our indoor range which was just finished as of april 1st allowed us to start early, we allready have 8 practice nights under our belt and plan on shooting weekly until the end of september when we will move indoors and shoot biweekly... so we are on step for having 30 practice nights this year., this is our 4th year.

plus we have 3 days of tactical training coming up with rising sun tactical on june 10-12th.... (pistol portion is june 11-12, see events section)

we are active, we are so active because we have a good core of volunteers that are stepping up and getting things done, as the old school falls back the young ones are moving up and keeping things rolling.... as old people burn out which they will you need to be training your replacement from day 1 and have them ready to handle everything at the drop of a hat.

as your seeing in just this thread, any organized sport is full of politics and IDPA is not immune to this.... to many chiefs and not enough indians and all that jazz... make sure you leave yourself an out, but make it so that the sport will continue.

think of this, by your club being affiliated with IDPA your club has just joined the ranks of canadian gun owners using their handguns for a SPORTING purpose, by doing this you give us credibility in owning handguns and showing the nay sayers that handguns sports are competitive and they are a valid recreational activity for handguns, which supports our "privledge" to own them.

as much as I hate the politics and the backstabbing, IDPA needs to be supported by as many clubs as it can be and we need to keep "action" shooting alive in this country to give us handgun owners a legal leg to stand on....

the "plinkers" as I like to call them are frankly a "liability" when it comes to handgun ownership, look at how the DCRA saved the ar15 rifle from going prohibited.... one day that will be handgunners and the IPSC/PPC/IDPA shooters are whats going to save it.

end of rant.... get out their and do it.... download a coy of the rule book and study it, go on youtube and watch all of the IDPA videos..,, take Jim up on his offer to teach an SO Course.... being so close to calgary I can't see the course cost being all that much... pay for it out of pocket... sign your friends and neighbors up for it.

 

[pepsicola]

B to start IDPA at Spruce Grove you do need a certified SO in residence.

Take Care

Bob

that is not entirely correct, to become an affilitated club he has to have an SO in residence.... for him to have an organized "defensive" pistol night and let the guys get an idea of what IDPA is he does not.

either way the rule book and hundreds of courses of fire are available online... no one says you cannot shoot "DPA" style to give it a try and see if thats what the membership would like. (using the IDPA rule book of course)

no need to push the club into spending hundreds of dollars and then have it fall flat on its face... get the group of guys going, get an SO course booked ASAP but don't let it delay you starting things up.....

 

[beltfed]

I am involved with a club who is an affiliated IDPA and as of yet we have had ZERO issues after 3 years of shooting IDPA, literally hundreds of thousands of rounds down range with ZERO accidents or near Misses......

Really? Which club is this?

...but for the most part it is all bull.... except for ontario, 90% of the shooters in canada and probably 90%+ of the shooters in the USA walked onto a range and started shooting IDPA.

I'd sure like to know where you got your numbers from, regardless I'd call B/S.
The people that just strap on an iron and come shoot are the most likely to get tossed from a match in my experience.

1) start them shooting IDPA with gun in hand, it takes one aspect of safety out of the equation and allows them to learn to enguage multiple targets and movement without having to worry about the draw, or the load and make ready reholster.... it gives them a boost of confidence and allows them to become comfortable in the "game" before youbring in the holster.... let them shoot a few nights this way or until they are comfortable, recommend that they practice the draw and the reholster at home with an empty gun. (we add +2 seconds to overall time for a no holster shooter to even the playing field, since we keep score on everything we shoot)

2) get the new shooter to come out early if theycan and work with them, have them draw and fire 2 rounds at the target, reholster and repeat... all under the buzz of the timer..... a simple drill that will enhance their muscle memory and give them confidence.

3) be UNFORGIVING about finger on trigger.... call them on it EVERY time.... be nice but stern about it.... they will learn quicker that way then of you give them a pass. a lotof new shootes like to "finger f*ck" the trigger.... call them on it every time in a stern voice... do not berate them, don't argue with them.... just call it as you see it and remember your call is what it is. (no need to DQ or anything, this is a learning curve for everyone).

The whole point to the NSO is to give this (more or less- some I agree with and some I think is out to lunch) in a structured orientation shoot.

 

[Ceska]

I am interested in someplace by Edmonton starting up IDPA. Hell, I'd even do the SO course so others could play.

I am not sure how IDPA is exactly run, but I would hope the minimum is having done the black badge course.

If people are touching the trigger(at the wrong time) or sweeping anything they should be sent home ala IPSC DQ.

 

[Canuck44]

I am interested in someplace by Edmonton starting up IDPA. Hell, I'd even do the SO course so others could play.

I am not sure how IDPA is exactly run, but I would hope the minimum is having done the black badge course.

If people are touching the trigger(at the wrong time) or sweeping anything they should be sent home ala IPSC DQ.

Best place to start is downloading the IDPA rule book fro idpa.com. Your Black Badge gets you a pass on knowing how to safely draw from a holster but doesn't do much for you as to how to play the game. Notice I said "knowing". Knowing and doing are two different things that is why we have Safety Officers. I have seen an IPSC Black Badge holder drop his gun on the draw....and yes after unloading and showing clear he was done for the day.

Take Care

Bob

 

[pepsicola]

I'd sure like to know where you got your numbers from, regardless I'd call B/S.
The people that just strap on an iron and come shoot are the most likely to get tossed from a match in my experience.

really... well for one and you know the rule book as well as me, if they are shooting a match then they have been classified, and are IDPA Members... so it is not as if they are just strapping a gun on and shooting matches, try not to blow this out of proportion.

so give yourself a reality check.... what I am discussing is practice nights where the more experienced shooters mentor the new shooters and we take baby steps, in a low pressure enviroment (ie: not a match).... we do not need to submit every new shooter to a full day safety course before they come out and practice, they have to learn somewhere.

Out of the 3 different clubs I have shot at that where IDPA affiliated none of them have done a structured safety course... everything was one on one with an experienced shooter.

 

[beltfed]

really... well for one and you know the rule book as well as me, if they are shooting a match then they have been classified, and are IDPA Members...

Not necessarily. Sanctioned matches yes, non-sanctioned club matches no.

so it is not as if they are just strapping a gun on and shooting matches, try not to blow this out of proportion.

I'm only quoting what you wrote: "90 of shooters walked onto a range and started shooting IDPA" (To all those members of club executives that may be following this thread, and may be considering the sport of IDPA to start and grow within your clubs, you should know that the above statement is patently nonsense).

.... what I am discussing is practice nights where the more experienced shooters mentor the new shooters and we take baby steps, in a low pressure enviroment (ie: not a match).... we do not need to submit every new shooter to a full day safety course before they come out and practice, they have to learn somewhere.

So whether you break it up over several 'practice nights' or however you justify it, it ultimately comes down to a "New Shooter Orientation" whereby individual or groups of shooters are introduced to the sport by professional, competant peers. I'm not sure where I indicated it needs to be a full day or where it was infered that all shooters are at the same level.
I'm also not sure why the pushback - Hell, I'd love to come out to a new shooter orientation and work on basic drills all day with free instruction, I'm not sure why new shooters wouldn't want that?- oh wait, I know it is not 'new' shooters that don't want it, just guys that feel they are somehow 'above it'.
So really this boils down to an ego thing!?

Out of the 3 different clubs I have shot at that where IDPA affiliated none of them have done a structured safety course... everything was one on one with an experienced shooter.

Yeah, where are these clubs again?

What you've described is some form of introduction to the sport. As above, if it is a structured or loosely-laid format that spans an entire day, weekend, or several week nights, the end goal is to have shooters that are new to the sport welcomed and helped along. Going over the rules and having their abilities gauged at the outset is prudent and beneficial to all that participate in the sport.

 

[pepsicola]

Yeah, where are these clubs again?

1) Dawson Creek B.C.
2) Peace River AB
3) Fort St John B.C.

only one of which is still affiliated.... and I have also shot in Terrace B.C., where according to some of thier shooters they never had a structured "safety program" for new shooter's till the last few years, bob taught his shooters the same as we teach ours... proper mentoring, not being beat over the head with the rule book.

what your comparing is apples and oranges, you are telling B that he must have a structured program and run every shooter thru it BEFORE they shoot one round down range... sure that is great when you can do it, I will not deny that....

but real world for small clubs is that new shooters trickle in, in ones and two's.... you can't stop the world and run a full day safety course for one shooter that just wants to try the sport and see if they like it. as I said, we mentor them the amount they need and at our club we give them a photocopy of the rule book in a duo-tang, they can do thier homework at home. and we always have copies of the rules on hand to show them where the rule is if they get called out on a procedural.

 

[beltfed]

...taught his shooters the same as we teach ours... proper mentoring, not being beat over the head with the rule book.

Who is suggesting new shooters need to be beaten over the head with the rule book?

... you are telling B that he must have a structured program and run every shooter thru it BEFORE they shoot one round down range... sure that is great when you can do it, I will not deny that.....

I'm not telling 'B' he needs to do anything...afterall who the hell am I to tell another club how to run their affairs?
I am suggesting that if they want to get IDPA off the ground at their club, the NSO and SO courses are good starts. I'd also recommend that they take that information to their club board for 'buy in' on the sport and what it has to offer their membership.
You do understand that most clubs have a board of directors and those directors accept a limited amount of personal liability for what goes on within the club, right?

...you can't stop the world and run a full day safety course for one shooter that just wants to try the sport and see if they like it.

Again, I must point out that no where did I indicate that a NSO course needs to necessarily be taught in a full day. Maybe I need to type this slower for you?

...as I said, we mentor them the amount they need and at our club we give them a photocopy of the rule book in a duo-tang, they can do thier homework at home. and we always have copies of the rules on hand to show them where the rule is if they get called out on a procedural.

That's awesome. I'm glad it's working out for you.

 

[Canuck44]

Gentlemen we are about to introduce a two day NCO course. It will be optional. The course has been reviewed by HQ. It will meet the requirements of the Ontario CFO. HQ believes it will produce better informed shooters.

There is only one club that does not offer some sort to informal NCO course now.

Details will be out the the affiliated clubs by the end of the week by email.

I expect most of the clubs in Canada will adopt it as their NCO course. It will be th only certifiable IDPA NCO course in Canada.

pepsicola I appreciate your club has certain range restrictions and you have taken a different approach than most other do to bringing new shooters into the sport. As Beltfed has said if it works for you and your club then great. I can tell you it would not work in larger centres.

Unfortunately, other clubs may have different issues to deal with and either must adopt a different approach due to CFO restrictions or their size and location does not permit the kind of approach used at your club. Either way there is no right or wrong but believe me there is a need for a formal NCO course and it will be two days.

The course will be distributed to Area Coordinators in the US.

You may want to check with your club contact in about 10 days. I know your club will benefit from the course.

Take Care

Bob
ps It is a formal course that will be offered at the Terrace Rod & Gun Club. It replaces the course we have offered for the past year. You should know once a year we offer a refresher course to our SO's

 

[B]

Still working things out everyone, please be patient. Pretty much looking at spearheading this myself now. I have a list of all interested parties and I will send PMs when things are finalized. If I can get a hold of a select few people and garner their support this should be a breeze. Now if you'll excuse me I have 13 IDPA DVDs I need to get through. Thanks Westicle!

 

[beltfed]

I'll be up in Spruce Grove this weekend shooting IPSC. I'd be more than happy to shoot the sh!t if you are up there as well....