Importing 30rnd AR mags?

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DMeNTED

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Well... since we constantly hear stories of pinned mags getting seized at the border I figured I'd work my way up the CFC chain and see if I could get a proper answer (other than, yeah its ok... I think) to the question of pinning mags with rivets.

Here's their answer.


Mr. X,

Thank you for your inquiry. Below you will find the CAFC position on magazine alterations. The Criminal Code defines how the modifications can be made, however as always, different interpretation leads to confusion. The issue with certain officials in the past is what constitutes "not easily removed and the magazine cannot be further altered ...". The de-facto standard in Canada at gun shows, business and in individual cases has been that riveting is an acceptable method of altering the magazine. The reasons we have accepted this as a standard are:

1. Riveting is as permanent a method of altering a magazine as any- given that any alteration can be undone;

2. Rivets will prevent the magazine from holding more than the defined number of cartridges as required; and

3. To be in possession of a magazine with a capacity contrary to the Criminal Code, is a criminal offence. If you rivet your mags today, and remove them tomorrow, you are in contravention to the law, therefore if riveted, you remain in compliance.


CFR Technical Advisory Bulletin
Subject: Magazine Control Regulations
Serial Number: 2005-02.001

Date: 2005.06.24


Background: Client requested the CFC position on the practice of riveting magazine to comply with the Magazine Control Regulations - Criminal Code, Section 84, Part 4 Prohibited Devices-Former Cartridge Magazine control Regulations.
(4) A cartridge magazine described in subsection (1) that has been altered or re-manufactured so that it is not capable of containing more than five or ten cartridges, as the case may be, of the type for which it was originally designed is not a prohibited device as prescribed by that subsection if the modification to the magazine cannot be easily removed and the magazine cannot be easily further altered so that it is so capable of containing more than five or ten cartridges, as the case may be.
(5) For the purposes of subsection (4), altering or re-manufacturing a cartridge magazine includes
(a) The indentation of its casing by forging, casting, swaging or impressing;
(b) in the case of a cartridge magazine with a steel or aluminum casing, the insertion and attachment of a plug, sleeve, rod, pin, flange or similar device, made of steel or aluminum, as the case may be, or of a similar material, to the inner surface of its casing by welding, brazing or any other similar method; or
(c) in the case of a cartridge magazine with a casing made of a material other than steel or aluminum, the attachment of a plug, sleeve, rod, pin, flange or similar device, made of steel or of a material similar to that of the magazine casing, to the inner surface of its casing by welding, brazing or any other similar method or by applying a permanent adhesive substance, such as a cement or an epoxy or other glue.

Resolve: The current position of the Registry TA's is that the riveting of magazines meets the standard, and is already the de-facto standard employed by people through out Canada, as witnessed at gun shops, gun shows and in the hands of the general public.

CFR Policy: It is the policy of the CFR Technical Advisors that the riveting of a cartridge magazine so that it is not capable of containing more than five or ten cartridges as applicable provides compliance with the criminal code.

Canada Border Services Agency is the agency that controls all imports into Canada, and they have the discretionary duties to enforce the Criminal Code. Should they deem your magazines are not in compliance with the CC, they have that authority.
 
Dmented, have you followed this up with CBSA as well? The reason I ask is that the CFC can tell us one thing until they are blue in the face, however CBSA is the one's who are seizing the magazines. I think that a firm answer from CBSA is what is really needed in this situation.

Good job on getting the CFC to actually put something in writing though.
 
Yeah, sounds good until you get to....

"Canada Border Services Agency is the agency that controls all imports into Canada, and they have the discretionary duties to enforce the Criminal Code. Should they deem your magazines are not in compliance with the CC, they have that authority"....

Note how it doesn't say they have to be right...just that they can do whatever they want, on a per incident basis.

jl
 
Are you getting riveted mags seized?

Our mags come pinned, and have been inspected by both the CFC and CBSA and never a problem (not rivets though, but still).

Todays shipment came with C-Products mags (surprise to me, was expecting the usual NHMTG), which are lanced, I noticed one of them had been cut open and inspected out of it's bag.

Are they thinking rivets don't count?

Bizarro.
 
dangertree said:
Are you getting riveted mags seized?

Our mags come pinned, and have been inspected by both the CFC and CBSA and never a problem (not rivets though, but still).

Todays shipment came with C-Products mags (surprise to me, was expecting the usual NHMTG), which are lanced, I noticed one of them had been cut open and inspected out of it's bag.

Are they thinking rivets don't count?

Bizarro.

There have been problems in the past with mags being pinned with rivets being siezed by CBSA.

Before importing mags - I'm trying to get some more labelle mags - I want to make sure they don't get siezed.
 
I don't see any issue with pinned mags, however I have heard stories where CBSA seized mags that were pinned, and then made comments about how the floor plate should have been welded/epoxied onto the mag. They are able to play by their own rules, and trying to get your stuff back from them is a pain.
 
####ing CBSA douchebags.

Holy ####.

Called CBSA...bounced around 4 times before I got some ##### who wouldn't give me her name (I only asked for it 3 times) and gave me some bull#### song and dance about me not being able to import any guns or parts without a business license (I laughed me ass off at her over that one) but did manage to get the CBSA memo on firearms. D19-13-2.

It quotes the exact same requirements as the response I got from the CFC.

Sent an email off to CBSA with their memo and the email from the CFC asking to either provide me with something in writing saying the CBSA recognizes the CFC's jurisdiction in making firearms prohibited vs. not prohibited device decisions *or* provide me with the contact information for someone who isn't a call center monkey so I can escalate the issue to legal.

If I don't get a response in a few days, or the response isn't satisfactory, I'll be contacting the office of Mr. Day... as he's in charge of both the CBSA and the CFC/RCMP.

Its ####ing ridiculous that 2 different departments can interpret the same ####ing act differently when 1 of them isn't even in charge of interpreting the act.
 
DMeNTED said:
f**king CBSA douchebags.

Holy s**t.

Called CBSA...bounced around 4 times before I got some ##### who wouldn't give me her name (I only asked for it 3 times) and gave me some bulls**t song and dance about me not being able to import any guns or parts without a business license (I laughed me ass off at her over that one) but did manage to get the CBSA memo on firearms. D19-13-2.

It quotes the exact same requirements as the response I got from the CFC.

Sent an email off to CBSA with their memo and the email from the CFC asking to either provide me with something in writing saying the CBSA recognizes the CFC's jurisdiction in making firearms prohibited vs. not prohibited device decisions *or* provide me with the contact information for someone who isn't a call center monkey so I can escalate the issue to legal.

If I don't get a response in a few days, or the response isn't satisfactory, I'll be contacting the office of Mr. Day... as he's in charge of both the CBSA and the CFC/RCMP.

Its f**king ridiculous that 2 different departments can interpret the same f**king act differently when 1 of them isn't even in charge of interpreting the act.

A crusader is born. :ar15: Long time coming D, good on you. Let me know if I can help.:beerchug:
 
DMeNTED said:
f**king CBSA douchebags.

Holy s**t.

Called CBSA...bounced around 4 times before I got some ##### who wouldn't give me her name (I only asked for it 3 times) and gave me some bulls**t song and dance about me not being able to import any guns or parts without a business license (I laughed me ass off at her over that one) but did manage to get the CBSA memo on firearms. D19-13-2.

It quotes the exact same requirements as the response I got from the CFC.

Sent an email off to CBSA with their memo and the email from the CFC asking to either provide me with something in writing saying the CBSA recognizes the CFC's jurisdiction in making firearms prohibited vs. not prohibited device decisions *or* provide me with the contact information for someone who isn't a call center monkey so I can escalate the issue to legal.

If I don't get a response in a few days, or the response isn't satisfactory, I'll be contacting the office of Mr. Day... as he's in charge of both the CBSA and the CFC/RCMP.

Its f**king ridiculous that 2 different departments can interpret the same f**king act differently when 1 of them isn't even in charge of interpreting the act.


Dont get your panties in knot now D. :p

AP
 
AlwaysPlayin said:
Dont get your panties in knot now D. :p

AP

Don't get my panties in a knot?

Some callcenter monkey whose salary *I* pay refuses to give me a name or callcenter monkey # and then basically lies to me - saying I can't import anything without a business license - when their own ####ing regs say I can and you expect me not to get my panties in a knot?

You know... I'm happy to deal with bull#### and paperwork. I'm even willing to navigate through voice menus and get transferred around within departments until I get someone to answer my question.

But it would be nice if the douchebags at some of these govt. offices actually did something other than sit around with their thumbs in their asses waiting to #### people around.
 
Well I will jump in here .I mailed 10 30 rd mags that had a aluminum follower stop installed and the floorplate rivet to the base and the gentleman who I mailed them to said that he never received them . It cost me bigtime because I had to issue a refund to the gentleman and I lost my mags !
I am not sure if they were confiscated at the border or not ,but he said that he never received them .
I tried to go through the proper channels to find out what might have happened but I was faced with the same BULL**** that you encountered ,except I was on the south side of the border . I just stopped shipping anything to Canada after that ! I still have a bad taste in my mouth from loosing the 10 mags .
This is just my story of what happened to me .
 
mikebaker1129 said:
Well I will jump in here .I mailed 10 30 rd mags that had a aluminum follower stop installed and the floorplate rivet to the base and the gentleman who I mailed them to said that he never received them . It cost me bigtime because I had to issue a refund to the gentleman and I lost my mags !
I am not sure if they were confiscated at the border or not ,but he said that he never received them .
I tried to go through the proper channels to find out what might have happened but I was faced with the same BULL**** that you encountered ,except I was on the south side of the border . I just stopped shipping anything to Canada after that ! I still have a bad taste in my mouth from loosing the 10 mags .
This is just my story of what happened to me .

That sucks! Sorry to hear.

You'll definitely want to send USPS-PP Express next time - that will tell you where your package is.

If the package is ever held at customs, the receiver will get a notice stating that they are being held or being destroyed, etc.

I have heard that sometimes the US will intercept suspicious mail and I imagine if they were gun parts being sent privately they probably would not allow them through either - unsure of the procedures; wether or not the sender would be notified in this instance (again this is just something I heard).
 
AAAAAAND....

This e-mail is to confirm that the Canada Border Services Agency (CBSA) policy on the limiting of over-capacity magazines is consistent with that of the Canada Firearms Centre and the RCMP.

In order to import a restricted firearm such as the AR-15, the importer (if a resident) would be required to present: 1) a valid licence; 2) a registration certificate for the firearm in question; and 3) the Authorization to Transport (ATT) the firearm.

With respect to the importation of the cartridge magazine described below, it is subject to the Regulations appended to the Criminal Code Part 4. In its original form, the magazine would be considered a "PROHIBITED DEVICE", unless it is modified as per the Regulations Prescribing Certain Firearms and Other Weapons, Components and Parts of Weapons.

Part 4, Para. 5 of these Regulations lists the acceptable methods of altering large capacity magazines to contain five or fewer cartridges (of the kind or type for which the magazine was originally designed). This list is not necessarily all-inclusive and therefore are not the ONLY acceptable methods of converting magazines to five or fewer shots capacity. The installation of a rivet (which is considered to be sufficiently permanent as it would require a machine tool or tool to remove) through the casing of the magazine to prevent the magazine platform from moving past the rivet, and therefore not permitting the insertion of more than five cartridges into the magazine is considered an acceptable form of modification. The ultimate test is to attempt to load more than five cartridges of the type for which the magazine was originally designed into the cartridge magazine.

As such, importation, by an individual, of a magazine altered as described is permissible, subject to normal customs requirements related to declaration, payment of appropriate duties and taxes etc.

If you have additional questions please contact the Border Information Service (BIS) telephone line at 1-800-461-9999 (in Canada) or 1-204-983-3500 or 1-506-636-5064 (outside Canada).

Thank you for contacting the CBSA.
 
Congratulations !!!! You've finally taken the "opinion" and "judgement" out of the issue. This should be made a sticky so that anyone who has problems in the future can use it against the individual who is trying to make up the rules as he goes along. Incidentally the last round of CBSA postings for Border Security Officer stated a requirement for the applicant to have a restricted PAL, so maybe, just maybe we'll get less BS in future.
 
Keep in mind EXPORTING MAG from the USofA IS ILLEGAL FOR THE SHIPPER w/o an export permit.

Just buy CProducts Stainless Steel mags from TSE - they are $30 - lanced with the Magpul (licensed) CProduct enhanced follower.
 
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