In response to post made in another thread.

CyaN1de

CyaN1de

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So I was reading the thread entitled "Am I asking too much from a factory rifle?" and someone made an interesting comment in regards to Savage rifles.

So not to derail the other thread I figured I would make my response here.

Now, first off, this is in no way a Savage vs Remington thread and I do not intend it to be one. Fanboys of either can make their own threads.

This is merely an informative post based on actual events and word of actual events from a very reliable and apt gunsmith.

First off, the quote to which I am making this post based on:

BadAsMo said:
The least expensive rifles that I've seen shoot well are Savage, plus the bolts are designed to prevent overpresure from getting to the shooter.(unlike Remmies which do didly squat to protect you if you rupture a case.
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Based on ACTUAL information from the above noted gunsmith, this quote above is quite the opposite of how these 2 actions are designed. (Pics will follow)

The Savage, from what I have been told, does NOT have ability to let gasses escape quickly enough to stop the action from exploding while the Remington does.

Here are pics of a recent Savage action that was fired with an obstructed barrel. Story is that a squib load pushed the bullet into the barrel and another shot was fired directly after. This happened at Mission in the last month or so.

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Here is a video showing a test of a few different actions with a bore obstruction, one being a Rem 700, and while the barrel bursts....the action stays in tact.

[youtube]e4AqMl1A4aQ[/youtube]

Noted gunsmith has removed several Rem actions that were severely overloaded and while they may have bulged, the actions did not come apart, and the shooter(s) walked away unharmed. He mentioned fused cases to boltfaces and the likes but that was the extent of the major damage other than the action becoming unusable.
 
That's why I stay away from the junk that most american rifles have become.

If I remember correctly, all the rifles in the video were chambered in 30-06 and all had a barrel obstruction at the same place.
 
I had a customer bring a Remington 700 into my shop. It was a .22-.250 varmint rifle, in near new condition. It had been fired with a steel rod in the barrel. The bullet stopped in the bore. The casehead was fused to the boltface. The rim of the boltface was expanded and cracked. The shooter was absolutely unharmed. The bolt and barrel were ruined, the receiver did not appear to be damaged. The stock and magazine were intact. The Remington breeching system worked exactly the way it was designed to work.
A M70 Winchester was brought to me. 7mm Remington magnum. It had been fired with a .308 cartridge. The case ruptured, of course. A piece of boltface, the extractor were gone. The sides of the stock were shattered, floorplate broken off. Shooter was unharmed.
I have never examined a Savage which experienced a catastrophic case failure. Had one brought in which had been fired with snow/ice in the barrel. Barrel was split full length, forend had shattered. Shooter had fired the rifle off a rest, his hand was not holding the forend. This probably saved his hand.
In my opinion, if a cartridge case is going to experience catastrophic failure, no rifle will protect a shooter better than a Remington 700.
 
tiriaq said:
I had a customer bring a Remington 700 into my shop. It was a .22-.250 varmint rifle, in near new condition. It had been fired with a steel rod in the barrel. The bullet stopped in the bore. The casehead was fused to the boltface. The rim of the boltface was expanded and cracked. The shooter was absolutely unharmed. The bolt and barrel were ruined, the receiver did not appear to be damaged. The stock and magazine were intact. The Remington breeching system worked exactly the way it was designed to work.
A M70 Winchester was brought to me. 7mm Remington magnum. It had been fired with a .308 cartridge. The case ruptured, of course. A piece of boltface, the extractor were gone. The sides of the stock were shattered, floorplate broken off. Shooter was unharmed.
I have never examined a Savage which experienced a catastrophic case failure. Had one brought in which had been fired with snow/ice in the barrel. Barrel was split full length, forend had shattered. Shooter had fired the rifle off a rest, his hand was not holding the forend. This probably saved his hand.
In my opinion, if a cartridge case is going to experience catastrophic failure, no rifle will protect a shooter better than a Remington 700.
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Ummmm..... judging by the video seems like ANY rifle will protect a shooter better than a Remington 700 :p
 
I have seen split/burst barrels made by Parker Hale (worst), Savage, Sako. I've never seen a burst Remington barrel.
As far as actions are concerned, handling case failures, the 700 is best commonly available action.
 
marcoman said:
Ummmm..... judging by the video seems like ANY rifle will protect a shooter better than a Remington 700 :p
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I would rather have a damaged hand from the stock splintering like it did in the video rather than having a bolt come at my face.

Word is that the shooter of the pictured gun may lose his eye because of just that.
 
tiriaq said:
I had a customer bring a Remington 700 into my shop. It was a .22-.250 varmint rifle, in near new condition. It had been fired with a steel rod in the barrel. The bullet stopped in the bore. The casehead was fused to the boltface. The rim of the boltface was expanded and cracked. The shooter was absolutely unharmed. The bolt and barrel were ruined, the receiver did not appear to be damaged. The stock and magazine were intact. The Remington breeching system worked exactly the way it was designed to work.
A M70 Winchester was brought to me. 7mm Remington magnum. It had been fired with a .308 cartridge. The case ruptured, of course. A piece of boltface, the extractor were gone. The sides of the stock were shattered, floorplate broken off. Shooter was unharmed.
I have never examined a Savage which experienced a catastrophic case failure. Had one brought in which had been fired with snow/ice in the barrel. Barrel was split full length, forend had shattered. Shooter had fired the rifle off a rest, his hand was not holding the forend. This probably saved his hand.
In my opinion, if a cartridge case is going to experience catastrophic failure, no rifle will protect a shooter better than a Remington 700.
Click to expand...

Thanks for the first hand perspective.

I am sure ANY rifle can do exactly what the Savage did, it would be interesting to hear of any first hand accounts of other catastrophic failures from other makers as well and how the actions stood up.
 
CyaN1de said:
I would rather have a damaged hand from the stock splintering like it did in the video rather than having a bolt come at my face.

Word is that the shooter of the pictured gun may lose his eye because of just that.
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Thats terrible to hear. As far as the Remington comment, it was in jest.;)
 
How a guy has a squib load in a bolt action and then keeps firing is beyond comprehension. No recoil, an obvious difference in sound, and no observation of the bullet hitting the target. Yet the shooter chambers another round and fires?

Not to sound judgemental, I don't think there's an action safe enough to keep that person from harming themself. I hope for him he doesn't lose his eye. He would have been fortunate to have lost only his rifle and scope. Accidents will always happen but this one was so easily avoided it's a shame to have happend in the first place.
 
You know though, things happen. That really shouldn't. Shzt happens. That's why manufacturers try to incorporate margins in their products.
There is a reason that manufacturers' warranties are void if handloaded ammunition is used. They have absolutely no control over how laddie loads his own. A least with SAAMI or CIP ammunition there is a known, predictable standard.
I recall that a major Scandinavian mfr. was doing destruction testing on a new rifle design. Tested a .30-06. Hammered a bullet up into the barrel, fired another round behind it. Nothing happened. Repeated with two bullets. Again with three. Then hammered a bullet in, poured the barrel full of lead, flush to the muzzle. The gas cut its way past the bullet and lead. Action held. I suspect the trick here, apart from it being a good design, was that there load was in contact - no gap.
Bad action blowups occur when the casehead fails, and the high pressure gas is dumped into the action, and the action can't handle it. Some actions are much better than others, from this standpoint. Ackley's tests done years ago are informative, if dated. Some classics like the original M70 Winchester and the '03 Springfield leave a lot to be desired, from the standpoint of handling high pressure gas loose in the action. The overall quality of modern factory ammunition is the saving factor for some designs. Blown caseheads are very rare.
 
2bad4u2 said:
How a guy has a squib load in a bolt action and then keeps firing is beyond comprehension. No recoil, an obvious difference in sound, and no observation of the bullet hitting the target. Yet the shooter chambers another round and fires?

Not to sound judgemental, I don't think there's an action safe enough to keep that person from harming themself. I hope for him he doesn't lose his eye
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I wouldn't be too hard on him. While we now know that it was a squib, there are all sorts of other ways it might have appeared on-the-spot. For example, "click", out comes an empty case -- maybe I short-stroked the action and clicked on the previous empty? Yes yes in retrospect it sure would have been good if he had pulled the bolt and verified an empty barrel, but there are all sorts of reasonable (or common) scenarios which can lead to an accident.

I am interested to see what arises from the accident investigation. That is one of the worst rifle blow-ups I've ever seen (in fact it quite possibly is the worst). The manner in which the action failed is *very* surprising to me, there are at least two anomalies that I can see that would interest me if I was the accident investigator.
 
bellero said:
Well, if you watch the video you'll see one! ;)
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I have never seen a burst Remington barrel, in my time running a gunsmithing shop. The Remington I inspected which had been fired with the rod in the barrel is an outstanding example of a superior design performing as intended. I have seen a lot of barrels damaged by being fired with obstructions. As I mentionned, the worst examples I saw were Parker Hales. Seems as if they are on the brittle side. Extreme example was one shattered into seven pieces.
A shattered action like the Savage in the photos is truly frightening. It is also an extremely unusual event.
 
Blow Up

The rifle that blew up at our club was a .270 wsm, The fellow was a guest shooter and new to shooting, he fired the first round and did not see a hit on the target and being inexperienced thought he a simply missed so he chambered another and the pictures tell the story , Last i heard besides the facial injuries its not looking good for his eye , but time as they say heals things so lets hope for the best for the shooter.
 
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