Increasing Small Arms Lethality in Afghanistan

steve5412 said:
A 22 would also kill in your Sanrio but It seems that at 200+meters I rather be shot at by a 5.56 as my odds of surviving to fight another day would be grater, the question is how about you. Which would you choose?
Click to expand...

I choose to not be shot by anything. I have to ask, can you tell the difference between 5.56 and .308 when being fired at you? Somehow I doubt anyone could. That being the case, are you willing to bet your life that the rounds going over are simply 5.56 "poodle shooter" projectiles?

As an added note to Tim_Cox's post. Barrier penetration is great, and clearly the 5.56 round isn't the star performer in that sense. However, if said scumbag is behind cover, he isn't returning accurate fire either, nor is he shooting through said cover with any great effectiveness. For such a horrible round I have yet to hear of any significant gun battles taking place. Both in Iraq and Afghanistan the MO is IED/VBIED's because a toe to toe gunfight is a bloodbath.

As for the "more lethal" round. The real key here is that the POTENTIAL of the new round has been demonstrated under IDEAL conditions to support the claim of improved terminal performance. Again, its where you shoot them not what you shoot them with that matters. The 6.5 or 6.8 or any of the other wonder calibres are only effective if the user makes hits. Focusing on training rather than hardware will yield far better results than simply changing the gear. The other issue is the decrease in magazine capacity coupled with an increase in weight. Below is a paragraph from 65grendel.com

One minor drawback of 6.5 Grendel is the weight of the ammunition, some 30% heavier than that of the 5.56mm Mk262 cartridge. This means that for a basic load of ten magazines (nine in pouches, plus one in the gun), there is a slight increase in the carry load, as well as a decrease in the number of rounds immediately available to the rifleman.

5.56 Mk262: 10 x 30-rd mags = 300 rds @ 11.2 lbs

6.5 Grendel: 10 x 26-rd mags = 260 rds @ 13.6 lbs

For a gain of 30% in weight you lose 20% of your ammo? I see nothing but a loss here. Again, the "advantage" of the cartridge is only a benefit if the user makes hits. Training is the immediate and constant answer. Switching gear and/or calibres is not.

TDC
 
Rounds cracking overhead is one thing but being hit with anything would be bad regardless of caliber.
Anyway google the results of 5.56 hitting flesh. Passage of a 5.56 near a bone shattered it. What a mess the leg was in.
Bullet construction and its' velocity will determine how lethal the round will be. M193 does more damage within 200 yards from a 1-12" twist barrel than the 62 grain bullets through a 1-7'' twist barrel. Perhaps the M-16 A1 would be a better rifle for troops rather than the HBAR C-7's with the faster twist and leave the long distance shooting to soldiers with 7.62 rifles.
I am no expert but there seems to not be a shortage of ammunition for the soldiers overseas so if they must shoot a bad guy several times to kill him then all is good.
 
Longshot said:
Believe it or not it is actually pretty easy to tell 5.56 from 7.62 when they are snapping over your head. :)
Click to expand...

So are you going to stick your head out and challegne the poodle shooters if you hear 5.56?:p

Blah, whatever, I am no Longshot, once it is over 300m my sense of distance goes to s**t.........my eyeball is no laser ranger finder to range a target on a 10m increment.

Do people realize - many are asking people to do accurate enough range estimation and then dial in , or hold off, for the drop + wind? Beyond 300m, it is not point and shoot anymore.

Give everyone a big bullet - the process is still the same.
 
greentips said:
So are you going to stick your head out and challegne the poodle shooters if you hear 5.56?:p

Blah, whatever, I am no Longshot, once it is over 300m my sense of distance goes to s**t.........my eyeball is no laser ranger finder to range a target on a 10m increment.

Do people realize - many are asking people to do accurate enough range estimation and then dial in , or hold off, for the drop + wind? Beyond 300m, it is not point and shoot anymore.

Give everyone a big bullet - the process is still the same.
Click to expand...

agreed, 300m is a long way and its even farther if a bunch of guys have been taught that its the effective maximum of the 5.56. If people are constantly missing with a 5.56 at 300m, why do some think that moving up to harder recoiling calibre of 7.62 wont result in even more misses?

Has the military come to rely so much on crew served weapons and LMGs to get the job done that it up until recently has been slacking off in basic marksmanship? I read somewhere that the army teaches a far less technical course on marksmanship than say the USMC. Also with M4s with their shorter site lines isnt it kind of hard to hit a man size target at say 500m?

For those who can answer this, in Afghanistan what is the usual average for engaging hostile forces? Is the difference between Afganistan and Iraq simply that Iraq was mostly urban fighting where as Afghanistan is hills, fields and valleys type of stuff?

Lastly the Russians are still sticking with the 5.45 as well arent they? They most have had alot of use of this similar round to the 5.56 in Afghanistan?

Is this caliber debate based on any reality or is just being driven by armarments companies looking for a new tender? Other than the 7.62x39 surely the 5.56mm most be one of the biggest killers in history.
 
Wow, this again? How am I supposed to get to sleep (after checking to see if Reaper is under the bed & making lists of people I would not let blow me) knowing my ar is only good for maiming poodles?
 
I just weighed a 7.62 round, it was about 365 grains. Then I weighed a 5.56 round, it was about 175 grains.

If given the choice, I'd rather carry twice as much 5.56 for the same weight.
 
Naw guys. You got it all wrong. Add a barrel shroud that goes up and make soldiers fire from the hip. They'll be deadlier. The newspapers and televisions says so.
 
a0jc said:
Naw guys. You got it all wrong. Add a barrel shroud that goes up and make soldiers fire from the hip. They'll be deadlier. The newspapers and televisions says so.
Click to expand...


[youtube]9rGpykAX1fo[/youtube]

barrel-shroud.jpg
 
steve5412 said:
A 22 would also kill in your Sanrio but It seems that at 200+meters I rather be shot at by a 5.56 as my odds of surviving to fight another day would be grater, the question is how about you. Which would you choose?
Click to expand...

Longshot said:
Believe it or not it is actually pretty easy to tell 5.56 from 7.62 when they are snapping over your head. :)
Click to expand...

I can tell but that was under calm conditions. Add a lot more people and a lot more fire and I bet it's impossible to hear the difference.

TDC
 
USP said:
Has the military come to rely so much on crew served weapons and LMGs to get the job done that it up until recently has been slacking off in basic marksmanship? I read somewhere that the army teaches a far less technical course on marksmanship than say the USMC.
Click to expand...
I believe the Marines have always placed a great deal of attention to small arms marksmanship, even if it falls from popularity with other forces. I can't speak to current CF doctrine, but can say with conviction 10-15 years ago that small arms marksmanship training was low on priority lists in the CF. Certainly you will have situations where all soldiers are not necessarily of the same caliber when it comes to skill at arms, but getting the vast majority of them to a level of proficiency with rifles at 500m is readily obtainable with the rifles and ammunition that are fielded. It's a training issue not a gun or ammunition/caliber issue.

USP said:
Also with M4s with their shorter site lines isnt it kind of hard to hit a man size target at say 500m?
Click to expand...
Not at all. Granted it is a static target on a known distance range, with zero rounds coming back at the firer....but the concept of marksmanship is the same. This represents 2+ moa - very do-able.

Aug30-09-SR-15-500m.jpg
 
beltfed said:
I believe the Marines have always placed a great deal of attention to small arms marksmanship, even if it falls from popularity with other forces. I can't speak to current CF doctrine, but can say with conviction 10-15 years ago that small arms marksmanship training was low on priority lists in the CF. Certainly you will have situations where all soldiers are not necessarily of the same caliber when it comes to skill at arms, but getting the vast majority of them to a level of proficiency with rifles at 500m is readily obtainable with the rifles and ammunition that are fielded. It's a training issue not a gun or ammunition/caliber issue.


Not at all. Granted it is a static target on a known distance range, with zero rounds coming back at the firer....but the concept of marksmanship is the same.

Aug30-09-SR-15-500m.jpg
Click to expand...



blah this just reaffirms the fact that I couldnt hit a bus at 10 feet with my AR. With irons, I am not sure offhand I could hit anything smaller than a large car at 500m.

There was a huge post about marksmanship on ARFcom awhile ago with the army guys arguing with the USMC guys about training and how one is more technical and theory based than the other.
 
I saw this video with marines shooting the #### out of a station wagon full of a family.
Like 1000 rounds, they were all shot to pieces.
Just shoot the #### out of people.
 
Glockshooter said:
I saw this video with marines shooting the s**t out of a station wagon full of a family.
Like 1000 rounds, they were all shot to pieces.
Just shoot the f**k out of people.
Click to expand...

Did you think they shoot the car for fun?

From what I understand martyrs will drive to a checkpoint with a car full of women and children all the while the trunk loaded with explosives...When they don't stop as directed the troops expect the worse and bad things happen....Quickly I assume.
A few times it has turned out to be a panicked driver...The guys that did the shooting have to live with this...Tough place to be put in a 20 year old boy.

If it was your son at that checkpoint whom do you want going home?
If it is my son (they are our sons) I have two words for you...
OPEN FIRE!
allah can sort the rest.

I have no idea how our own forces deal with this situation?
Perhaps some of the guys that have been there can fill us in on what we do different (if anything)?
 
Some good thoughtful posts here by Navy Shooter and others.

The solution is in getting some better ammo, 77gn OTM of some sort and more training. Changing guns and caliber's is not the realistic answer.

Don't believe everything you read on the internet. 5.56 is not as bad as some think it is.

Rich
 
I agree with X-fan. It is unfourtunate, but throughout history there have always been radicals who seek power through martrydom. Be that in the afterlife or making a lasting impression on the physical world. But one has to understand that most of these poor young souls are innocent kids, told that everything they have never had, and probably never will have, will be waiting for them if they do just this one thing, no matter how big. It would be equivalent to someone dangling the Land Deeds for every province infront of you, saying "I promise you all this will be yours to do with as you wish, but first you must blow up this insignificant border post." When your young and starving, it's hard to distinguish life, death and reality when death is all around you, your not really living at all. I feel sympathy for these misguided people, however, I fully support our troops! Remember "The object of war is not to die for your country, but to make the other bastard die for his". I would rather our countrymen come home safe and sound, but forget not to shed a silent tear for the widow/mother who lost a son because of it. All wars are civil wars no matter how you cut it, for all men are brothers.
Just my 2 cents. As for lethality of weaponry, heavier bullets with at closer ranges that can deliver more kinetic force on impact would help, I do not know if hollowpoint ammunition is allowed in the warzone now? My cousin who served in Iraq mentioned in the first month, all the soldiers were trying to get thier hands on hollowpoint ammunition but were ordered to turn it in. Some did, some didn't. I don't see a dis-proportionate use of long-range weaponry in an urban warzone environment, personally I would prefer an intermediate caliber with slower, heavy, hard hitting rounds.
 
ammo has allways been a problem with our military. finding a answer is costly . the ammo being used is designed to defeat body armour. not soft targets.
 
You must log in or register to reply here.
Back
Top Bottom