Industry-Wide Replacement for 870/\Moss?

[VLT79]

Too many posts to quote so all I'll say is...

Newer equipment never will make up for a lack of training. If you can't hit your marks with a pump action shotgun the only thing the semi-auto will do, is allow you to send more un-aimed rounds down range at a faster pace. Most shotguns with even a simple bead sight are plenty capable of putting a rifled slug on a target the size of a human head easily out to 50 yards and many out to 75-100yd line as well. I agree that rifles/carbines also have their place but believe the pump action shotgun is the more versatile choice when it comes to typical urban Law Enforcement.

Poor marksmenship is today's biggest problem in the LE community. The ladies and gentlemen that are being paid to protect us should be required to fire a minimum 25rds for handguns, 10rds for shotguns and 10rds for rifles (if they have them on the job) every week, without fail!!!

 

[870P]

I agree.

The AR is just easier to shoot well and will reach out a lot further if needed.

To a degree maybe, the AR is easier to manage but the shotgun will still tend to have a greater hit probability.

I can't put up a link on my phone but the U.S. military studies that came out of the Joint Combat Shotgun Program stated that the shotgun had a hit probability 50% higher than that of the submachinegun and twice that of the assault rifle, within a 30 yard envelope.

Of course its a lot easier to find good carbine training than shotgun training, and some folks can't physically handle the shotgun or can't because of inadequate training.

I recently read this autobiography of a female FBI agent who told of where her class had to shoot 50 rounds of buck and slugs in one session during their academy training. The result was the female agent ended up with a permanently injured shoulder while others in the class were bruised, battered and even shedding tears.

Shotguns don't kick THAT hard but these folks probably received poor training (this was back in the 80s I think) and got beat up by it.

 

[SantaClawz]

It is just really further militarization of the police in Canada . Our Canadian police forces have been following this trend for quite some time with the use of body armour , tactical style uniforms , tazers , semi automatic side arms and now the push towards high capacity AR style tactical rifles and semi auto shotguns . At the same time , upper police management has constantly pushed for more severe gun control and restrictions for the average Canadian gun owner . It is very concerning as we already maintain a professional military , why do we need such a heavily armed police presence in our communities , are they there to police our neighbourhoods or to do battle....?

Well said.

 

[mr00jimbo]

A lot of police work is done up close, as in really close, and closing in on somebody. If a guy has a knife, you will be several feet away but most likely handgun distances.
But here`s the thing...why not train cops on an AR, and a shotgun, and keep BOTH in the car?
When will a Mossberg 590[A1] or an 870 really wear out? How about a good AR?
They both have their practical applications. It'd be nice to run a Benelli M4, but then you can't run less than lethal as readily as a pump.

At my job, I see violent criminals hauled away all the time. Several cops come, always one is carrying the 870. For arresting people that close-up, I would not want anything other than the up-close power of a shotgun.

 

[enefgee]

Inside 100 yards (where 99% of all police engagements should occur) a good shotgun with the right ammunition is as precise as the operator can make it - certainly capable of centre mass hits. Additionally, a shotgun is unlikely to require multiple hits, the reality is that shotguns lack one thing that carbines have in their favour - ease of operation. It takes skill and training to be viable with 12 gauge slugs - for the last 25 years, police administrators have been using a reduction in training as the go-to method of cost cutting. All the tacticool stuff is generally a way to make folks with inadequate training LOOK like highly trained operators (IMHO). Same for armoured car guards - cool guy gear, no cool guy content.

 

[870P]

I'm not sure law enforcement training was necessarily better back in the good old days, example;