Interested in Muzzle-loaders

[The Sand Man]

Hi Everybody,

I've always had a inclination to try out muzzleloading firearms, perhaps because my CFSC instructor belittled them with his vast handgun collection

Anyways, I got to try one out on Father's day at the Victoria Fish and Game open house. I was rather impressed and intrigued by the overall atmosphere and procedure of a muzzle-loader.

The rifle I got to shoot was a .50 caliber Caplock muzzle-loader with an offset nipple, and a double (set/fire) trigger. I think it had a 24" barrel, more or less.

I rather enjoyed that setup as being a very optimal balance between reliability and classic look/function. I'd probably want something identical, but with a long barrel, 30" or so.

My main reasons for wanting a muzzle-loader would be for fun, target practice, and later on...hunting. I'm not very keen on hunting large game such as deer, but owning a firearm that will give me the potential to do so is a bonus. I assume a .50 cal muzzle-loader is capable of taking a deer...

I really appreciate the vintage look, so I'm not interested in modern varieties. Namely internal hammers, bolts, synthetic/camo stocks, and optic capabilities.

What do the kind muzzle-loading gentlemen of CGN think? Is this a good setup for a beginner? Is this a wise path to take?

Here come the newbie questions, brace yourselves

1) Is a muzzle-loader only a rifle if the barrel is rifled?

2) What would be the average cost of shooting 100 shots from a .50 cal muzzle-loader? I don't think I'll be making my own powder or shot, at least as of yet. Essentially, what would be the cost of shooting a muzzle-loader?

3) What happens at the range if you have just pushed down some powder into the barrel, and a "Cease fire" is declared? Do you get to finish firing before proving the firearm safe?

4) Has anybody ever shoved down a patch and ball without any gunpowder? What would you do in that situation. (I'm not planning on doing that)

5) How difficult is it to clean a muzzle-loader from the breach? And how often should it be done?

6) Are there any other purposes to a bolt on a muzzle-loader, other than to disarm it without discharge and cleaning the back of the barrel easily?

7) I'm not worried about antique status or the collectability factor. How do new manufacture firearms compare to older varieties?

8) What are some brands and models that I should take a look at? My budget would be around $400, plus or minus $100 if the form and function is better. And yes, I know, the EE is my friend.

In terms of look and function, this is more or less what I'm looking for (Looks a little too fancy though):

I appreciate any help!

Cheers,
Sand

 

[Steppenwolf]

1. No there are smoothbore front stuffers too.
2. one can of powder at 70grs per shot should give you 100 shots. You can get deals of 500 ball for around $50
3. It all depends if it an emergency shut down. If it isn't just inform the Range Officer you have a hot load anf they will let you get the round off.
4. Just about everyone does it. If you have a poly rod it may have a ball puller. You can buy one.
5. Not difficult, use the barrel pins to remove the barrel from your rifle, stand the stockless barrel in a container of hot soapy water and make sure the nipple is submerged. Put a cleaning patch on you rod and pump the rod up and down in the barrel and this will act as a piston. Push/pull the patched rod up and down scrubbing the bore. Remove the barrel from the water container when clean. Spray WD40 down the barrel to displace the water. Run patches through until the bore is clean.
5. difficult and usually never.
6. must be one of those newfangled in-lines?
7. For me the older the better
8. Thompson Center Hawken or a Lyman's Great Plains rifle either would be a good one.

 

[mooncoon]

I rather enjoyed that setup as being a very optimal balance between reliability and classic look/function.

I would start with a percussion gun because flinters require an extra level of learning

1) Is a muzzle-loader only a rifle if the barrel is rifled?

while there are smooth rifles (set triggers and rifle sights but no rifling) most smooth bores compete in the trade gun category and have no rear sight and are flintlock.

2) What would be the average cost of shooting 100 shots from a .50 cal muzzle-loader? I don't think I'll be making my own powder or shot, at least as of yet. Essentially, what would be the cost of shooting a muzzle-loader?

I normally use about 50 gr of 3F black powder so figure about 17 cents for powder, 10 cents for a ball and 4 cents for the cap or 31 cents per shot. Flints cost roughly $1.50 - $2.00 each and get around 100 shots before becoming too small so are slightly cheaper.

4) Has anybody ever shoved down a patch and ball without any gunpowder? What would you do in that situation.

its is called dry balling and there are those that have and those that are going to :>) For a percussion gun, pull the nipple trickle some fine powder down the hole, replace the nipple, check that the ball is at the breach then shoot it down range. It only takes a few grains (weight) to shoot the ball out. If that does not work, trickle more powder in, check the ball is seated and repeat.

6) Are there any other purposes to a bolt on a muzzle-loader, other than to disarm it without discharge and cleaning the back of the barrel easily?

virtually all of the bolt action muzzle loaders (apart from being unclean and an abomination) are fast twist rifled and intended for shooting jacketed slugs in plastic sabots. They would be more or less useless with round ball. On Van Island, all of the competitions are for patched round ball as are those in the interior of the province.

7) I'm not worried about antique status or the collectability factor. How do new manufacture firearms compare to older varieties?

it is hard and expensive to find original rifles in shooting condition so to that extent the modern ones for the most part are better than the originals. On the other hand the lines and workmanship of a good and working antique are considerably superior to the run of the mill modern production guns.

8) What are some brands and models that I should take a look at? My budget would be around $400, plus or minus $100 if the form and function is better.

there is a rendezvous coming up at Vic fish and game at the beginning of August; bound to be some reasonable secondhand rifles there and in general your best bet for your budget is a good condition second hand gun. I will be at the rondy and people do know me as mooncoon; look me up for a chin wag. My dog Moon will be outside my tent but his rarely bites (deeply)

cheers mooncoon

 

[fester]

I have a 50 cal hawken it is awesome and super super fun to shoot. Try epps they have some for sale. there is also a nice looking cva in the exchange right now.
youtube has excellent videos on cleaning and firing. Also by a Lyman blackpowder book excellent info and stories.

 

[deadhead]

as for cleaning I have been using some of the newer powders that do not require cleaning after every day of shooting such as the Jim Schockey gold. Some people say they aren't as good but I am very happy with it in my gun. It saves a lot of time cleaning. As about it at a good gun shop.

 

[The Sand Man]

Thank you very much everyone! I really appreciate all the replies, they really clarified some of my questions.

Cheers,
Sand

 

[H Wally]

Definitely go to the August Rondevous! I'm trying my darndest to be there too, so I can be soundly beaten by those who actually shoot their guns outside of rondy's The August Rondy in Victoria was where I got into things, and I have to warn you, blackpowder is addicting!

There are loads of knowledgeable friendly people at all rondy's (unless they've dryballed, then they tend to get a bit of kidding ) You're bound to get a good idea of what exactly you're looking for, and odds are someone there will have one, or something close to it. If you ask reallllyyy nice, they may even let you shoot it


PS Here's the gf shooting flintlocks for the first time. Both guns (amongst many) were brought by forum members for a range day for my history course!

[youtube]Q_R2FRxRC40[/youtube]

[youtube]5pI1a19H2yk[/youtube]

 

[The Sand Man]

By the looks of it, I've picked up that CVA Hawken .50 Cal. rifle that was on the EE.

Here is the next volley of newbie questions....Feel free to take a shot.

9) What powder to use, 2f? What are some good/trustworthy brands? Where should I buy it?

10) For target practice purposes, would I use spherical projectiles or bullet shaped shots? I presume a sabot and smaller caliber bullet is more expensive....? Where should these be bought/available?

11) Patches, what's up with those? They should be waxed? Are they the same as the cleaning patches?

12) Out of curiosity, what is the difference between a .50 cal and a .54 cal, is it that significant?

13) I fully understand the necessity of pouring powder into a powder measure prior to dumping into the muzzleloader. My question is, how often do powder loads go off as you dump them into a freshly fired barrel, presumably with smoldering embers....?

14) From Youtube videos, and what I recall from my CFSC cource, a ramrod is utilized only after the powder has been poured and the patch and shot have been seeded. I don't know why, but I swear I've seen videos, perhaps movies, of people pushing the powder charge with a ramrod, then again for the patch and shot, am I going crazy?

15) I've re-read the Firearms Safety Manual, it never mentions the firing procedure of a set trigger cap lock muzzleloader or the full-####/half-####.

From what I know, most modern rifles feature safeties, disengaging a safety is the last step before firing a rifle. So, in a way, a percussion cap is in fact a safety; in that, without it the rifle won't fire. So putting the percussion cap onto the nipple should be done after the set trigger is pulled.........But then again, a set trigger is just an accessory to pulling the trigger, so it should be done after the percussion loaded. But wait, when should the rifle be half cocked (I assume, like most firearms, my rifle won't fire if half cocked, even if the trigger is pulled).......ARGH

I say:

Load rifle>Half ####>Insert percussion cap>Prepare to fire>Full ####>Pull set-trigger>Fire
(the muzzle is obviously down range at all times, once the loading process is complete)

No wonder the rate of fire is so low. I bet the Colonial British didn't follow proper safety procedures during battles.

If you haven't noticed, I'm rather anal about safety. I don't think I should be embarrassed by it either. What have the knowledgeable gentlemen of CGN learned from their experiences?

Thanks for the help!

Cheers,
Sand

 

[Dantforth]

I wouldn't use anything but black powder in 2F granulation. The person who posted here saying that the BP substitutes are best because they don't require cleaning is WRONG!! These powders....Pyrodex and T7 being two, in my experience, are more difficult to clean and are as corrosive than BP. Good luck, Dave

 

[fester]

I agree you have to clean after every firing, but I even clean my old 22's after every use.
It all seemed extremely confusing to me when I started, but you develop a system for loading and cleaning and it becomes habit.
In my hawken I have only used pyrodex, only powder available where I live. I have 2f and 3f (for pistols) and have used both in my rifle.

 

[bdft]

By the looks of it, I've picked up that CVA Hawken .50 Cal. rifle that was on the EE.

Here is the next volley of newbie questions....Feel free to take a shot.

9) What powder to use, 2f? What are some good/trustworthy brands? Where should I buy it?
I use Goex 3F in my 50 Hawken. 2F should work just fine.

10) For target practice purposes, would I use spherical projectiles or bullet shaped shots? I presume a sabot and smaller caliber bullet is more expensive....? Where should these be bought/available?
I shoot 490 round ball with a .015 patch. Buy them where you find them.

11) Patches, what's up with those? They should be waxed? Are they the same as the cleaning patches?
Patches can be any fabric the correct thickness. Lube with Crisco or anything else other than petroleum based products.

12) Out of curiosity, what is the difference between a .50 cal and a .54 cal, is it that significant?
Its .04" bigger.

13) I fully understand the necessity of pouring powder into a powder measure prior to dumping into the muzzleloader. My question is, how often do powder loads go off as you dump them into a freshly fired barrel, presumably with smoldering embers....?
I've never seen it happen.

14) From Youtube videos, and what I recall from my CFSC cource, a ramrod is utilized only after the powder has been poured and the patch and shot have been seeded. I don't know why, but I swear I've seen videos, perhaps movies, of people pushing the powder charge with a ramrod, then again for the patch and shot, am I going crazy?
Probably. Its hard to tell from this angle.

15) I've re-read the Firearms Safety Manual, it never mentions the firing procedure of a set trigger cap lock muzzleloader or the full-####/half-####.

From what I know, most modern rifles feature safeties, disengaging a safety is the last step before firing a rifle. So, in a way, a percussion cap is in fact a safety; in that, without it the rifle won't fire. So putting the percussion cap onto the nipple should be done after the set trigger is pulled.........But then again, a set trigger is just an accessory to pulling the trigger, so it should be done after the percussion loaded. But wait, when should the rifle be half cocked (I assume, like most firearms, my rifle won't fire if half cocked, even if the trigger is pulled).......ARGH

I say:

Load rifle>Half ####>Insert percussion cap>Prepare to fire>Full ####>Pull set-trigger>Fire
(the muzzle is obviously down range at all times, once the loading process is complete)

No wonder the rate of fire is so low. I bet the Colonial British didn't follow proper safety procedures during battles.

If you haven't noticed, I'm rather anal about safety. I don't think I should be embarrassed by it either. What have the knowledgeable gentlemen of CGN learned from their experiences?

Thanks for the help!

Cheers,
Sand

Hope this helps.

 

[mooncoon]

9) What powder to use, 2f? What are some good/trustworthy brands?

I think you badly need to join the Victoria Fish and Game club and shoot with the Malahat Marauders. For powder I would suggest 3F GOEX. GOEX is about the only choice easily available locally. 3F because it gives less fouling than 2F

10) For target practice purposes, would I use spherical projectiles or bullet shaped shots? I presume a sabot and smaller caliber bullet is more expensive....? Where should these be bought/available?

11) Patches, what's up with those? They should be waxed? Are they the same as the cleaning patches?

in local competitions, round balls are the only choice accepted. mini and maxi balls are not accepted. small caliber slugs with sabots probably will not work in your gun because they require a faster twist rate to the rifling. Inline guns which are intended only for hunting have much faster twist rates than traditional guns.
The patches need to be pure cotton (no nylon) and the thickness should allow you to push the patch ball down with some resistence but neither should it just easily slide down nor require a lot of pounding. You buy the fabric by the meter at a local fabric store with a micrometer and I am guessing you will want around .015" patching. At the same time buy some diaper material for cleaning patches. You lube the patches for target shooting, with moose milk which is a roughly 20% mixture of water soluable cutting oil with water and you can buy it by the liter for about $10 mixed up or the oil itself by the gallon for about $25 which makes up about 20 liters of lube. Greasy patch lubes accelerate fouling and are used for hunting rather than target shooting. Many consider them to also increase the odds of a smoldering patch.

. My question is, how often do powder loads go off as you dump them into a freshly fired barrel, presumably with smoldering embers....?

hopefully never; even though it is pretty rare, it is just safe practice to load from a measure and not from the horn. The few cook offs that I have heard of involved either guns that had not been cleaned for a very long time (months or more) or rapid fire in re enactments.

15) I've re-read the Firearms Safety Manual, it never mentions the firing procedure of a set trigger cap lock muzzleloader or the full-####/half-####.

more or less you do not have a safety. you do not cap until loaded and then cap just before firing but before setting the trigger. If the trigger malfunctions, the gun can fire with the cap in your fingers which is uncomfortable

Let me repeat; you need to join the local club, I would be very surprised if they will not help you in the learning experience as well as the range providing a safe format where you can learn to shoot your gun

cheers mooncoon

 

[sunray]

Buy a copy of Lyman's Black Powder Handbook and Loading Manual. Buckets of good info. Starting with the fact that BP loads are by volume, not weight. Still trying to get my head around that after 30 plus years of reloading smokeless. About $30 in your local gun shop.

 

[(((Echo)))]

Partial hijack

Like The Sand Man, I too find myself forging into muzzleloader territory. I've shot a bit of BP years ago. It was my friends father's Lyman .50 percussion. The sounds, the smell......the smoke!!! Ahhhh, good memories. Anyway, I'm in the process of getting a Traditions PA Pellet flintlock. Mostly for having fun and making holes at the range.
After reading through the tons of info here, I too will probably be asking some stupid newbie questions.

First batch of questions. Where can one get BP flintlock supplies? The local WSS has stuff for percussion, but nothing for flint. Can I buy from the states without a rectal exam? Anyone this side of the border with a decent supply?

Sorry for the partial hijack.
Thanks guys.
(E)

 

[Steppenwolf]

Track of the Wolf is a great place south of the Medicine Line for things BP.

 

[H Wally]

Definitely go to the Malahat Marauders shoot in early august. Show up, be friendly and respectful, listen hard to what people say, and someone will show you the ropes. If you take the time to watch what people are doing you can learn loads.




I agree that it's pretty confusing initially. I'm still making stupid mistakes (bringing the wrong thickness patches, forgetting enough powder on the trail, not having the right gear), but it's a load of fun.



Edit - from your posts it sounds like you just got your PAL and are new to the shooting world. Because of that, some people might be leery of you. Don't be put off, it's just that usually new shooters make more mistakes and have to be watched more carefully. It's (probably) nothing personal, they're just being cautious.

 

[The Sand Man]

Like The Sand Man, I too find myself forging into muzzleloader territory. After reading through the tons of info here, I too will probably be asking some stupid newbie questions.
Sorry for the partial hijack.

No worries, I'd encourage newbies like myself to post BP questions in this thread. At least it'll make me look less like an idiot. Please post your questions in a numbered format like myself, it makes reading and answering easier.

Buy a copy of Lyman's Black Powder Handbook and Loading Manual.

..... Also by a Lyman blackpowder book excellent info and stories.

Will do! Thank you for the suggestion, I concede by consensus.

I think you badly need to join the Victoria Fish and Game club and shoot with the Malahat Marauders. ..[snip]..
Let me repeat; you need to join the local club, I would be very surprised if they will not help you in the learning experience as well as the range providing a safe format where you can learn to shoot your gun
cheers mooncoon

Definitely go to the Malahat Marauders shoot in early august. ...[snip]...
Edit - from your posts it sounds like you just got your PAL and are new to the shooting world. Because of that, some people might be leery of you. Don't be put off, it's just that usually new shooters make more mistakes and have to be watched more carefully. It's (probably) nothing personal, they're just being cautious.

I'd very much like to join up and give it all a try....but, sadly, I have final exams coming up right after the August shoot......I highly doubt that I'll make it to that outing...

Regardless, I'll take my Savage Mark II out to the range once my exams are over and my friend gets his PAL. I'm looking for to get some time at the range prior to learning to use a muzzleloader. Just so everybody knows, I did rather well on my CFSC exam, my only mistake was forgetting one of 3 safeties on a lever action...oh well. I'm a cautious person, not that I expect people to believe me.

Now that I purchased a muzzleloader, I'm mostly looking for information regarding what gear to get. At least I'll be able to get started prior to the late November shoot.

Cheers,
Sand

 

[mooncoon]

Regardless, I'll take my Savage Mark II out to the range once my exams are over and my friend gets his PAL. I'm looking for to get some time at the range prior to learning to use a muzzleloader.

The caretaker at the Malahat range is a black powder shooter, unless I am mistaken. You might want to pick his brain. He can also probably give you contact info for some of the Malahat Marauders (the black powder section)

cheers mooncoon

 

[Ahsan Ahmed]

as for cleaning I have been using some of the newer powders that do not require cleaning after every day of shooting such as the Jim Schockey gold. Some people say they aren't as good but I am very happy with it in my gun. It saves a lot of time cleaning. As about it at a good gun shop.

Out of curiosity, what condition (in terms of bbl internal condition) have you observed so far? IMO, regardless of the powder used the bore will start to corrode if left unattended for even a day.

 

[fester]

I clean after every day of shooting. The black powder corrodes quickly.

Items I have are probably about the minimun for shooting. I am still relatively new at BP and only have the two firearms, I need more time and money to acquire more, don't we all.

-short starter- I broke mine and made a new one
-extra range rod-made out of dowel
-powder measure
-extra nipples for percussion, flinters sorry I have no experience