Interesting 25 pounder shell

[Sgt Fox]

The other day I came across this 25 pounder shell casing. Someone has carved "exploded in box while being load on ship at Montreal". I wonder if the cordite got too hot and the nitroglycerine weeped out. I assume the box held back the projectile and the case expanded at the weak parts until the gas could escape around the projectile.

(Click for larger)

 

[Beretta-Skeet]

Ahah that's pretty awesome. I've never seen that before on such a large scale.

 

[hutchster]

Funky, and it doesn't get much more unique than that

I just picked up a 25 pounder shell in really nice shape today, so we both win LOL.

It was mighty decent of the person to detail its history right on it, most times you would come across something like that and spend a lifetime wondering what happened.

 

[antiqueguy]

its like trench art only not made by anyone

 

[Ganderite]

Primer appears to have been hit. I would assume it is a fired case someone has re-shaped.

 

[buffdog]

Primer appears to have been hit. I would assume it is a fired case someone has re-shaped.

The 25 Pounder Gun/Howitzer used "semi fixed" ammunition. That is, the projectile was loaded into the chamber and rammed until it was stopped by the rifling, by the Number Two Man on the gun crew. The brass case was then loaded into the chamber, and then it was ready to fire.

AMMUNITION and charged CARTRIDGE CASES were not joined together, but were separate from each other. The Ammunition Limber held 32 rounds of Ammunition, in trays for immediate use along with 32 fully charged brass cases. Each brass case held four powder charges in bags inside it, joined by a string, and had a formed composition cup on top to hold them in place, much like a shotgun wad. These were known, starting from the base (primer) end as Charge 1, Charge 2, Charge 3 and Super Charge. The cloth bags were different colours for each charge. Super Charge was only used for Anti-Tank use or emergencies as it was considered hard on the Gun for recoil. In actual use, the Firing Order would specify the Charge to use and the Gun Layer would use the appropriate setting on the sight drum. If, for example, Charge 2 was specified, one of the three men on the crew ( Numbers 4,5, or 6) would take the "Becket" (wad) out of the case, and break the connecting string off the Super Charge and Charge 3, leaving Charge 2 and Charge 1 inside the casing. He would discard the two powder bags taken off in a safe location to be burned later and insert the wad back into the case. Part of the composition of the wad contained an anti-fouling compound to ease wear and tear on the rifling of the bore. The case would then be loaded into the chamber of the gun behind the shell, and the gun was ready to fire.

Ammunition and loaded Cartridge Cases were NOT assembled and shipped in the same container. If, by some remote possibility that a Cartridge inside a steel ammunition box were to "explode", it would simply drive the WAD out the end, and not being restricted by a chamber, it would NOT be propelled FORWARD to cause damage as shown by the photograph, especially the "crimp" and compression of the case. It might split the mouth of the cartridge case, but it would have to be restricted in some way to compress the case.

Even thin rifle cartridges, when heated and "cooked off" simply pop the bullet out of the neck of a case, and do not have this type of compressed case damage.

If you look at the picture, the bottom bulge is not even from side to side from the collapse of the case walls, , and the mouth has a flare or enlargement. Given an educated thought, I would say that someone has put this case into a hydraulic press that had a top die for flaring pipe, (about 4 inch diameter), and applied pressure to compress the brass case.

Another "Urban Myth" busted.

 

[Grizzly Adams]

I'm going with, Some German spy sabotaged it.

Grizz

 

[Dosing]

The 25 Pounder Gun/Howitzer used "semi fixed" ammunition. That is, the projectile was loaded into the chamber and rammed until it was stopped by the rifling, by the Number Two Man on the gun crew. The brass case was then loaded into the chamber, and then it was ready to fire.

AMMUNITION and charged CARTRIDGE CASES were not joined together, but were separate from each other. The Ammunition Limber held 32 rounds of Ammunition, in trays for immediate use along with 32 fully charged brass cases. Each brass case held four powder charges in bags inside it, joined by a string, and had a formed composition cup on top to hold them in place, much like a shotgun wad. These were known, starting from the base (primer) end as Charge 1, Charge 2, Charge 3 and Super Charge. The cloth bags were different colours for each charge. Super Charge was only used for Anti-Tank use or emergencies as it was considered hard on the Gun for recoil. In actual use, the Firing Order would specify the Charge to use and the Gun Layer would use the appropriate setting on the sight drum. If, for example, Charge 2 was specified, one of the three men on the crew ( Numbers 4,5, or 6) would take the "Becket" (wad) out of the case, and break the connecting string off the Super Charge and Charge 3, leaving Charge 2 and Charge 1 inside the casing. He would discard the two powder bags taken off in a safe location to be burned later and insert the wad back into the case. Part of the composition of the wad contained an anti-fouling compound to ease wear and tear on the rifling of the bore. The case would then be loaded into the chamber of the gun behind the shell, and the gun was ready to fire.

Ammunition and loaded Cartridge Cases were NOT assembled and shipped in the same container. If, by some remote possibility that a Cartridge inside a steel ammunition box were to "explode", it would simply drive the WAD out the end, and not being restricted by a chamber, it would NOT be propelled FORWARD to cause damage as shown by the photograph, especially the "crimp" and compression of the case. It might split the mouth of the cartridge case, but it would have to be restricted in some way to compress the case.

Even thin rifle cartridges, when heated and "cooked off" simply pop the bullet out of the neck of a case, and do not have this type of compressed case damage.

If you look at the picture, the bottom bulge is not even from side to side from the collapse of the case walls, , and the mouth has a flare or enlargement. Given an educated thought, I would say that someone has put this case into a hydraulic press that had a top die for flaring pipe, (about 4 inch diameter), and applied pressure to compress the brass case.

Another "Urban Myth" busted.

Did they ship in the metal transit chests with a base charge in them? I personally would find it plausible if there was a charge of some sort in the case, while stacked in the metal transit cases. Although I would also question why someone would 'manufacture' such an item, and take the time to carve the rather lackluster inscription, it would hardly make it worth anything. Additionally the primer damage could have been done during the event or after as a safety precaution. I don't see enough uniformity to think of a die being used, but have seen large diameter brass/metals take interesting forms when not contained, if this was in the double stack transport cases it would have been restrained at the mouth and base, which would make the side bulge and flared mouth reasonable.

 

[Garand]

Uploaded at Snapagogo.com

I'll go with Buffdog, given that the 25 pdr cartridge cases were packed 8 per metal box with very good insulating material covering the primer it is difficult to believe that it would have been initiated in the shipping container. Given the lack of excess space in the shipping container, it the box was full there wouldn't be enough room in the container for the mouth of the cartridge case to flare that much. Ammunition packaging is drop tested from a very high height to ensure that no accidents take place as a result of rough handling of the ammunition.

One other possible explanation, a number of years ago we tried an experimental (yes it was authorized) method of getting rid of large amount of artillery cartridge cases with the primer and propellant still inside. We placed the cartridge cases base up on the ground an taped Det Cord to each primer then high ordered it. This method turned out to be a colossal failure and was never tried again. End result many of the cartridge cases mouths were flared as in the picture and we had to place each cartridge case in a purpose built cartridge case depriming machine and ensure that each primer was struck and had a visual indentation in the primer.

 

[dauph197]

The primer has been hit at the right place and deep enough to prove it was not an accident. It is more an unfinished kind of art... not event trench art as I don't see how they can have done that while in the field. Someone just tried to make something with it. To tell what was the maker's idea... your guess worth mine.

 

[Sgt Fox]

While its hard to see on the pictures, the primer strike does not look correct. If you look closely, the strike is a 1/4" long rectangle extending far past the primer edges, coming in from an angle. Looks more like someone used a hammer and a flat blade screwdriver, or had a very unlucky drop. As for the deformation, there is no tooling marks whatsoever. Inside is uniform, with no die marks, scrapes or dents. There is still pieces of fabric from the charge bags stuck to the casing. I can't see anything except internal pressure causing this, the narrowest point in the crimp is no smaller than the correct diameter of the shell. The expansion's curves are consistent, much like other ballooned cartridges I've seen.

 

[Dosing]

I'll go with Buffdog, given that the 25 pdr cartridge cases were packed 8 per metal box with very good insulating material covering the primer it is difficult to believe that it would have been initiated in the shipping container. Given the lack of excess space in the shipping container, it the box was full there wouldn't be enough room in the container for the mouth of the cartridge case to flare that much. Ammunition packaging is drop tested from a very high height to ensure that no accidents take place as a result of rough handling of the ammunition.

One other possible explanation, a number of years ago we tried an experimental (yes it was authorized) method of getting rid of large amount of artillery cartridge cases with the primer and propellant still inside. We placed the cartridge cases base up on the ground an taped Det Cord to each primer then high ordered it. This method turned out to be a colossal failure and was never tried again. End result many of the cartridge cases mouths were flared as in the picture and we had to place each cartridge case in a purpose built cartridge case depriming machine and ensure that each primer was struck and had a visual indentation in the primer.

I think actually you kind of just made it seem more plausible. I do not find it even remotely difficult to believe that while being loaded on a ship a case could have fallen (not like that ever happened), so what happens if you drop a case 40 or 50ft onto something that pierces the shipping case, or just drives the metal case into the primer and triggers the primer. Simply because people haven't seen it in their lifetime, or were never stevedores doesn't mean it cant happen.
Your second para mentions a flared casing.
It seems more reasonable to think its legit than someone made it and took the time to do so for no real purpose.
It would be interesting to see if there is any record in relation to the port at Montreal.

 

[Garand]

Having worked as a "Service Representative Officer" back when we still did annual resupply of ammunition to the Canadian Depots in Germany, I have seen stevedore's run the forks of a forklift through the sides of a missile container and drop a pallet of ammo from 20 meters, while loading the resupply ship in Rimouski. Military ammunition is specially designed to be as insensitive as possible in order to withstand rough handling.