Interesting 303 ammo ....

Actualy that one round is not a blank but rather a drill purpose round. Instead of powder, there should be a wooden stick in the case. The purpose being to prevent the bullet from getting shoved back into the case on repeated cycling of the firearm. You might also note that the case is plated. The fact that most of the plating is worn off indicates that round has been used a LOT for the purpose.
 
I attended the Late Colonel Labbetts last lecture at the Imperial war Museum for the Historical Breech loading Small Arms assoc. He sadly passed away on the train home. Herb Woodend was also a member. sadly both will be long missed.
 
chofo said:
Ummm... okay smellie... you got me hooked now ...

I GOTTA HAVE THAT .303 BOOK !!!

If you could possibly get me a title, or ISBN number or something I'll try and find one. Hopefully it's still in print, if not, I can almost walk to the National Archives building in Ottawa and I'm sure they'll have a copy. ( They have a copy of almost every crack-pot magazine or tin-hat author in Canadian history so why not an obscure book on cartridges???).

And yes... an ammunition forum might be very interesting for the milsurp crowd.
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X2!!! I too would be very interested in this book!!
 
boltonscouter said:
X2!!! I too would be very interested in this book!!
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Google is your friend

also;
Labbett, Peter. 1988. .303 Inch: A History of the .303 inch Cartridge in British Service. London, U.K.. 258p. ISBN: 0-9512922-0-X

Labbett, Peter. 1999. Radway Green: A History of Royal Ordnance Factory Radway Green and Royal Ordnance plc., Radway Green, 1940-1999. Labbett. London, U.K.. 35p.

Labbett, Peter. 2000. Assault Rifle Ammunition 5.6mm to 11mm. Labbett. London, U.K.. 65p

Labbett, Peter. 1988. British Anti-Tank Rifle Ammunition,1917-1945. Labbett and Brown. London, U.K..

Labbett, Peter. 1991. Britain's Search for a Rimless Cartridge. E.C.R.A. 25th Anniversary Special Issue. 32-41.

Labbett, Peter. 1989. British Air Service Ammunition Special Loadings, .45 inch to .707 inch, 1914-18. Labbett and Brown. London, U.K..

Labbett, Peter. 1999. British Small Arms Ammunition, Miscellaneous Calibres, Experimental and Service, 1939-1999. Labbett. London, U.K.. 57p.

Labbett, Peter. 1993. British Small Arms Ammunition, 1864-1938(Other than .303 Inch). Labbett. London, U.K.. 358p. ISBN: 0-9520567-0-4

Labbett, Peter. 1999. The Development in Britain of .30 inch Ammunition, 7.92 Ammunition, 15mm BESA Ammunition, 1939-1993. Labbett. London, U.K.. 74p

Labbett, Peter. 1997. The Development of 5.56mm x 45 Ammunition in Britain 1966-1997. Labbett. London, U.K.. 43p.

Labbett, Peter. 1989. The Development of the German 7.9mmx33 Kurz Cartridge. Labbett and Brown. London, U.K..

Labbett, Peter. 1998. Development of 7.62mm x 51 Ammo in Britain 1953-97. Labbett. London, U.K.. 66p.

Labbett, Peter. 1996. The History and Development of 9mm x 19 Para Ammunition in Britain 1919-96. Labbett. London, U.K.. 60p.

Labbett, Peter. 1980. Military Small Arms Ammunition of the World 1945-1980. Arms and Armour Press. London, U.K.. 128p. ISBN: 0853682941 (also available in French as Encyclopedie Mondiale Des Munitions Moderns, Armes Militaires Legeres, 1945-1980. Pygmalion. Paris, France. 1982)

Labbett, Peter. Technical Ammunition Guides: Series/Pamphlet. Labbett. London, U.K..

1 - 1, British Made 11.35mm, 20mm and 23mm Madsen Ammunition. 1979. 19p.

1 - 2, British Commercial Revolver and Self-Loading Pistol Ammunition; 1990. 33p

1 - 3, British Made .50" and 13mm MG Ammunition, Not adopted for British Service but for Commercial Sale; 1988. 28p

1 - 4, British 20mm Madsen Ammunition; 1991. 23p

1 - 5, A History of Kynoch Ammunition Production; 1993. 29p

1 - 6, Foreign Rifle-Calibre Ammunition Manufactured in Britain; 1994, 28p

1 - 7, British 37mm Madsen Ammunition; 1995, 19p.

2 - 1, British .270", .280" and 7mm Ammunition; 1980. 23p

2 - 2, British Military 7.92mm Ammunition. 1981. 24p.

2 - 3, British Military Pistol-Calibre Ammunition; 1981. 29p

2 - 4, British 4.85mm Ammunition; 1983. 21p

2 - 5, British .256 Inch and .276 Enfield Inch Ammunition, 1908-1913; 1983. 25p

2 - 6, British 20mm Hispano Ammunition; 1986. 22p

2 - 7, British 7.62mm NATO Ammunition. 1986. 26p.

2 - 8, British Anti-Tank Rifle Ammunition, 1917-45; 1988. 30p

2 - 9, British Air Service Ammunition, Special Loadings .45" - .707", 1914-18; 1989. 24p

2 - 10, British Service 30mm and 30/20mm ADEN Ammunition; 1990, 21p

2 - 11, British Service .50 Inch Browning Ammunition; 1991. 26p

2 - 12, British Service and Experimental 20mm Oerlikon Ammunition; 1992. 27p

2 - 13, British .303 Inch Ammunition, Special Loadings, 1915-1945 (Armour Piercing, Tracer, Incendiary, Explosive, Observation); 1994. 27p

2 - 14, British 30mm Rarden Ammunition (30x170mm), 1941-1999; 2000, 25p

3 - 1, Imperial Russian and Communist 7.62 x 54 Ammunition; 2000, 20p

3 - 2, Communist 7.62 x 39 Ammunition; 2001. 21p.

3 - 3, Die 7.9 Kurzpatrone, 1939-1945; 1989. 39p

3 - 4, Communist 12.7 X 108mm and 14.5 X 114mm Ammunition; 1990. 22p

3 - 5, German 2cm Cannon Ammunition, 1935-1945. 1996. 43p

3 - 6, Factory Drawings USSR or Russian Federation Small Arms Ammunition; 1997. 25p

3 - 7, USSR/Russian Small Arms Ammunition 1972-1997. 1998. 19p

3 - 8, German Small Arms Ammunition Factory Drawings, 7,9X57mm, 7.65X17mm and 9X19mm, 1937-1943, Polte, Magdeburg, and DWM Lubeck. 2001. 30p.

3 - 9, German Cannon Ammunition 1939-1945 Service Calibers 13mm-3cm. 2001. 47p
all listed here
 
Sweet jayzus there lad ! He was quite the prolific author, to say the least.

Always a shame to see the old lads pass on... all that knowledge and experience.

So, now I've got something to work on...a new reading list ! The Warlord's gonna be pissed.

Thanks TimC ... my old boy was in 425 Sqn. and was lucky. Sorry bout yer gramps... RAF Bomber Command was certainly NOT the place to be.

YES... John ... I was wondering what the hell was in there all these years... now I know, and why!
 
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I think the phrase is prolific, you got the impression that he really knew his subject and was able to answer questions without referring back to notes. It is sad but inevitable, we can be thankful he wrote so much down. The Cartridge collectors association would be a good place to start to get his pamphlets and books. He also helped our assoc members with their specialist research such as anti zepellin ammo etc.
I have a few rounds that I should catalogue but obviously nothing approaching Herb Woodends collection, professional or personal.
 
Why not post some of the more weirdo rounds you have ( Anti-zeppelin? WTF? THAT I gotta see...)

I'm sure I'm not alone on this site who would like to see more.

Smellie has a wonderful idea of a milsurp ammunition forum ... wonder if the moderators would consider this ... we might beconsidered a fringe group, however!
 
I seem to recall the cases were stamped B for Buckingham, incendiary rounds made by the fireworks manufacturer.
I have some old ones but nothing to compare. I'll see if I can take pics.
 
There are tons of books on 303 rounds, these two can still be had easily:

Edwards, Anthony. 2004. Headstamps and Markings on British Service .303 Ammunition. Solo Publications. U.K.. 55p.

Wonch, W.R.. 1958. Canadian Manufactured .303" British Ammunition. (Reprinted by Chris Punnett. 1982)


These others are harder to find. I got rid of all my 303 books, but there are still the odd ones available from ebay or online.

Harris, Lynn. 1980. The Military .303 Cartridge: it's History and Variations. Lynn Harris. Wellington, New Zealand. 116p.

Kistast, Edward. Notes of .303 British Ammunition 1939-1945, WW2 Era.

MacDonald, Chris R.. 1995. Canada and the .303-British : 1892-1992. S.C.C.G. 40p.

Temple, Barry A.. 1986-1988. Identification Manual on the .303 British Service Cartridge. 5 vols. Temple. Burbank, Australia.

No 1 - Ball Cartridges. 84p. ISBN: 0959667725.

No 2 - Blank Cartridges. 95p. ISBN: 0959667733

No 3 - Special Purpose Cartridges. 82p. ISBN: 0959667741

No 4 - Dummy Cartridges [1]. 84p. ISBN: 0959667725.

No 5 - Dummy Cartridges [2]. 78p. ISBN: 0959667725
 
I have the Tony Edwards book, he is a member of the HBSA and his lectures are very informative. I use it as a reference book and Peter Labbett was very kind about AO Edwards works.
Tony has wwritten a lot of books and usually credits Herb Woodend with making him do it. I certainly have tried to collect them.
 
Peter Labbett wrote a regular column in GUNS REVIEW magazine (Ravenhill Publishing, London) and there used to be a bookshop/newsstand in Vancouver where I could get it, back in the middle '60s. His articles always were short and his writing style was extremely compact; he never used 5 words where 2 syllables would do the job. There was just so MUCH information packed into a short article that you really had to think about it.

I have always thought that he must have been a wonderful lecturer, REALLY knew his stuff. He did, at one time, an entire series of articles on "The Banded .303s", leading the reader through this never-ending maze of red and green and purple bands on cartridges and you came out the other side knowing what you were looking at.

In the late 1970s I was living on Fogo Island, teaching History in the high-school there, and was given a few odd fired casings. I identified these (most tentatively, by process of elimination) as .450 Gardner & Gatling Cordite, took a set of case dimensions and sent off to the magazine. They wrote back that they could not help, that there was only One Man Who Might Know and that they had forwarded my letter to Major Labbett. About a month later I received an Air Letter from him, confirming my identification and giving, in about 3 lines, a potted history of what had gone on. He asked if I had a spare casing because he didn't have one (I had 3) so I wrapped one up and sent it off to him. He replied by return mail with a pulled-down 4.85mm (which I still have), only the second one I had ever seen (the other being at the Pattern Room). We corresponded, off and on, occasionally, and slowly I came to regard him as a friend I had never met.

The real problem was in swapping specimens because you can't air-freight the stuff. We were able to get a couple of tiny shipments hand-carried and there always were the odd ones that could go by mail. So I sent him a Canadian Mark VI dummy round with a hollow bullet and a few others and I still have the .280/.30 and the wooden-bulleted Carcano blank (First War) that he sent.

You are very fortunate in having heard him speak, TimC. That is a privilege for which I would have paid real money, had I had the stuff to pay.

His books, as utterly authoritative as they are, just don't seem to be available very often on this side of The Pond. I had an autographed copy of his book on military smallarms ammunition of the 20th Century but, of course, it got 'borrowed' and never returned. Don'tcha just HATE people who think books are common property? He did the ammunition part and P. J. Meade did the packaging part of the book. Only a little over 100 pages but you can identify ANYTHING from it: pure, absolute, 200-proof INFORMATION, just as concentrated as you can make it. That's why so few pages.

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Buckingham bullets: came out during the Great War for anti-Zeppelin use. First combat use was the Mark VIIB in the Lewis of a Sopwith Pup which shot down a dirty great Zepp that was bombing London. My grandfather and grandmother both watched this one come down (in flames) as both were on leave from their respective armies, Grandfather from 54 Batt, CEF and Grandmother from the Women's Army. They were in adjoining corner rooms of the same hotel, but did not meet until both were living in Vancouver, several years later! IWM has a Zepp Maxim '08 from this airship: armoured snout, no water-tank fittings on the jacket.

Buckingham series went 7 rounds altogether. These all were Incendiaries and may not be owned by Free Canadian Citizens.

Mark VIIB: original Great War and to 1926
BI: case headstamp post-1926
BII: case headstamp
BIII: case headstamp
BIV and BIVz: case headstamp, instantly recognisable by the stepped bullet. This was actually APIT for the armoured gas tanks on the ME-109s
BVI: case headstamp
BVII: case headstamp and blue-tip bullet
There was no issued Mark V; it was an unissued experimental which didn't quite make the grade. Thank you, Peter.

I should have some photos of some of these around here. I'll try to dig them out.

Hope this helps.

I just have NO idea what we are going to do if we are ever attacked by Zeppelins again!
 
smellie said:
His books, as utterly authoritative as they are, just don't seem to be available very often on this side of The Pond.
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Intrepid IAA members can track some of them down through Vic Engel in the States. He was where I picked up some of mine.
 
You can also look for "Canada and the .303 British 1892-1992" by C.R. MacDonald. It was copyrighted by S.C.C.G. in 1995.
This seems to be a privately published booklet so it may be hard to track down but it is an excellent booklet for Canadian manufactured stuff.
 
I wish I had known him earlier, he was accompanied by his wife at the last lecture. He was a master of brevity, when asked if the HXP contract ammo for the cadet forces was as good as the last mark 7z he answered No!
I suspect that to be an expert as he was in any field you need to be a little single minded. AO Edwards has produced several books about arms and ammo in UK service, usually the odd stuff, Arisakas, RFC weapons, you see the way he went and yet his pamphlets are excellent. I usually go to his lectures as he will sign the pamphlets for you.
I recall saying during the Q&A session at Peter Labbetts last lecture (we had discussed .280/30 and 4.85) that I had found in 1981 during my training a large number of fired 4.85 cases on the range at Hythe and I knew then even at 16 how important and possibly rare they would become, yet didnt have the nerve to smuggle them out (a chargeable offence) and no idea of how to ask permission either. He laughed and said I had done the right thing. About 10 years later during TA service I did a GPMG shoot at the same firing point but I couldnt find them!
 
Gibbs505 said:
I remember reading that britian did not sign the hague convention until they had developed the MkVII round. This was because they were having trouble on the NorthWest frontier and the tribesamen there were unimpressed with the current , nonexpanding, rounds.
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I am joining this thread late and I see the discussion of the "Dum Dum" rounds has run its course. On this topic I remember seeing a picture of a box of Brit .303 ammo marked "Not for use on Civilized Troops" on the label. I wonder if this was related to the hollow points that were discussed earlier.
 
After HP mil ammo was made illegal under the Hague convention in 1900 the "Not for use against civilised troops" label was added. The HP MkV .303" ctg was again made in 1903 for use against the "Mad Mullah' in Somalia.
 
The surgeon Generals report from the Battle of Omdurman on native enemy casualties put paid to further use, it was apparently quite graphic and sickening. The conventions signed by civilised nations only applied to those civilised nations when fighting each other and not when fighting non signatories. That legally still applies now but convention dictates otherwise!
 
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