Interesting book on early police handguns

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ffolkes

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This book covers the revolver era, from the adoption of the 38 special through the attempt to make the 41 magnum the new police cartridge to, being written in 1973, the early research into autos and 9mm alternatives.

https://archive.org/details/bristow-allen-search-effective-police-handgun-1973-102-mb-w-append/page/n1/mode/2up

there are pdf/epub save options on the side, sorry if im stepping on anyone's copyright here, so far as I know what's on Archive.org is cleared for that sort of thing.
 
There was another person, who is a member here, who wrote a similar paper, circa late 1970's along the same lines. Perhaps he will chime in on this thread.

In that later paper there was quite a leaning toward adopting the .41 Magnum for uniform police issue.

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NAA.
 
NAA said:
There was another person, who is a member here, who wrote a similar paper, circa late 1970's along the same lines. Perhaps he will chime in on this thread.

In that later paper there was quite a leaning toward adopting the .41 Magnum for uniform police issue.

--------
NAA.
Click to expand...

It was a very good choice at the time. - dan
 
ffolkes said:
This book covers the revolver era, from the adoption of the 38 special through the attempt to make the 41 magnum the new police cartridge to, being written in 1973, the early research into autos and 9mm alternatives.

https://archive.org/details/bristow-allen-search-effective-police-handgun-1973-102-mb-w-append/page/n1/mode/2up

there are pdf/epub save options on the side, sorry if im stepping on anyone's copyright here, so far as I know what's on Archive.org is cleared for that sort of thing.
Click to expand...

I am reading it and I will keep on reading it, from A to Z. Interesting. Thank you very much.
 
NAA said:
There was another person, who is a member here, who wrote a similar paper, circa late 1970's along the same lines. Perhaps he will chime in on this thread.

In that later paper there was quite a leaning toward adopting the .41 Magnum for uniform police issue.

--------
NAA.
Click to expand...

There was a time (late 1960's to early 70's) when the .41 Magnum was thought to be "the answer" for police work. San Francisco PD and El Paso PD both issued the S&W Model 58 (4" fixed sight N frame, like a Model 10 on steroids) for a period of time. However, consensus was the gun was too big and heavy for uniform carry and the round as loaded in factory ammo was too stout for some to control. Tom Ferguson, an El Paso police officer, wrote a far bit about the .41 mag during that time and he was a supporter. SFPD dropped it after a while and not sure how long El Paso kept it.
 
tobin said:
There was a time (late 1960's to early 70's) when the .41 Magnum was thought to be "the answer" for police work. San Francisco PD and El Paso PD both issued the S&W Model 58 (4" fixed sight N frame, like a Model 10 on steroids) for a period of time. However, consensus was the gun was too big and heavy for uniform carry and the round as loaded in factory ammo was too stout for some to control. Tom Ferguson, an El Paso police officer, wrote a far bit about the .41 mag during that time and he was a supporter. SFPD dropped it after a while and not sure how long El Paso kept it.
Click to expand...

I personally knew a Sergeant on the San Jose PD [Bay area of CA] whose uniform duty revolver circa 1985 was a S&W Model 57 6" brl .41 Magnum. He also carried a .380 auto & a Hi-Standard .22 mag derringer [in a wallet holster, no doubt] as back-ups.

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NAA.
 
There is a ton of gun related stuff on archive.org, well worth a search. The book is a great example of how 50 year-old expert opinion would not be held in high regard today unless you spend a lot of money on propaganda. My firearms certificate in the UK said "38 Special NOT 357 Magnum", I cut X's on my 158 grain round noses at one point.
 
tobin said:
There was a time (late 1960's to early 70's) when the .41 Magnum was thought to be "the answer" for police work. San Francisco PD and El Paso PD both issued the S&W Model 58 (4" fixed sight N frame, like a Model 10 on steroids) for a period of time. However, consensus was the gun was too big and heavy for uniform carry and the round as loaded in factory ammo was too stout for some to control. Tom Ferguson, an El Paso police officer, wrote a far bit about the .41 mag during that time and he was a supporter. SFPD dropped it after a while and not sure how long El Paso kept it.
Click to expand...

The original cartridge was intended to be more of a .41 Special than Magnum.
 
Lee Enfield said:
The original cartridge was intended to be more of a .41 Special than Magnum.
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You are correct. The "police" load was a 210-gr. lead bullet at around 900 fps and also had too much recoil, even with the 900-fps load.

The Model 57 received a greater reception from a small group of connoisseurs who saw it as an excellent outdoorsman’s revolver combined with a 210-gr. jacketed load at more than 1,400 fps. I had a 6" Model 57 and that was very snappy load!
 
I own three different 41 mags, and have owned others in the past, with barrels from 3 inches to 6.5. The police load is very manageable in any of them, I think the main problem is gun fit. N frames are fairly large revolvers, smaller hands have a tough time with them, unless a lot of training is involved. - dan
 
dan belisle said:
Not according to the film's armourer, though it was supposed to be a 4 inch 29 which they couldnt get. - dan
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I remember watching an interview with John Milious regarding the gun. His statement, from what I recall, was they couldn’t find a model 29 so they subbed in a M57 6.5” for the camera work until they could get their hands on a 44.
That was a while ago so I could be fyked up.
 
koldt said:
I remember watching an interview with John Milious regarding the gun. His statement, from what I recall, was they couldn’t find a model 29 so they subbed in a M57 6.5” for the camera work until they could get their hands on a 44.
That was a while ago so I could be fyked up.
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I remember an interview with him, but don't recall that. Apparently they used an 8 3/8 inch barrel for a couple of stills to exaggerate the size of the firearm. But, as you say, long time ago and sometimers plays a part. - dan
 
dan belisle said:
I own three different 41 mags, and have owned others in the past, with barrels from 3 inches to 6.5. The police load is very manageable in any of them, I think the main problem is gun fit. N frames are fairly large revolvers, smaller hands have a tough time with them, unless a lot of training is involved. - dan
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I agree with you about the size and weight of the gun. When I worked in policing, the issue of weight on the gun belt was a major issue as to back problems, etc. Also, recruits with small hands and short fingers were occasionally found to be shooting K frame revolvers using 2 fingers to pull the trigger due to a lack of hand strength and that was with 4" K frames! Not sure they would even be able to hold a 4" N frame on target for very long.
 
dan belisle said:
I remember an interview with him, but don't recall that. Apparently they used an 8 3/8 inch barrel for a couple of stills to exaggerate the size of the firearm. But, as you say, long time ago and sometimers plays a part. - dan
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When DH first came to the theatre in the days before the “multiplex” in Saskatoon, I had to sneak in cause I was about 12 or 13 and it was rated too high for me to get in. My brain tells me the old Capitol theatre on either 2nd or 3rd Ave. It had a big balcony on the top and box seats with the big velvet curtains. The ticket booth was outside in the rotunda area. Damn, when I say the numbers, it was a time ago.
 
On another note Calgary PS had Webleys prior to Mod 10s. I’m told shooting a guy who was wearing a heavy leather coat and the bullet failing to penetrate, was the nexus for the change. Stayed with the 158gr lead HP at 850fps until 1992 when the change to G22, 180gr Gold Dot at 1000fps. I think, the best combination going still today. However now going with G17, 147gr. Different minds than I have swallowed the “new 9mm is just as good” philosophy, cause the FBI said so. I guess it helps the Smurf cops getting qualified with the white shirts.
 
koldt said:
When DH first came to the theatre in the days before the “multiplex” in Saskatoon, I had to sneak in cause I was about 12 or 13 and it was rated too high for me to get in. My brain tells me the old Capitol theatre on either 2nd or 3rd Ave. It had a big balcony on the top and box seats with the big velvet curtains. The ticket booth was outside in the rotunda area. Damn, when I say the numbers, it was a time ago.
Click to expand...

Yeah, I'm of an age too. Saw that flick in the Strand in Thompson MB. Not quite the armpit of Canada, but you can see it from there. - dan
 
koldt said:
On another note Calgary PS had Webleys prior to Mod 10s. I’m told shooting a guy who was wearing a heavy leather coat and the bullet failing to penetrate, was the nexus for the change. Stayed with the 158gr lead HP at 850fps until 1992 when the change to G22, 180gr Gold Dot at 1000fps. I think, the best combination going still today. However now going with G17, 147gr. Different minds than I have swallowed the “new 9mm is just as good” philosophy, cause the FBI said so. I guess it helps the Smurf cops getting qualified with the white shirts.
Click to expand...

Didnt the CPS have a commemorative revolver made, a S&W 13, I think? - dan
 
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