Interesting pattern results

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I decided to take advantage of this great weather and my week off of work and went to Silverdale to do some shooting with a buddy. While I was there I decided to pattern my turkey gun - I added a 22" bbl and bought a new choke (Primos), so I wanted to see what it was capable of. The only turkey loads I had were the Winchester Double X 3" #5's and the Hevi 13 3" #5

When I was in Cabala's last week I picked up some Hevi 13 ($24.00 US for a box of 10:eek: ) after hearing people rave about it. I set my targets and paced 10 yds into a 50 yd range and let 'er go. The results were not that impressive at all. I re-did the pattern three times with the same result:

Hevi 13 - 3" #5 @ 40yds:
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I did the same test with the Winchester Double X three times to make sure there were little deviations in the patterns (here are pic's from 2/3 targets:
DSC00305.jpg

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I was shocked to see how poorly the Hevy 13 performed against the Winchester Double X - I counted 12 critical hits with the Hevy 13 and noticed a clumpy pattern:mad: and 51 critical hits and a nice even pattern with the Double X. I was under the impression that Hevi Shot would pattern better than lead, am I missing something? The Winchester Double X performed amazing in these tests.

For fun I am going to try the Winchester Xtended Range 3" #5's, and the Federal Flight Control just to see how they compare to the Double X with my choke/gun combo.
 
Havent you ever heard that different loads work with different barrels? Keep trying till you find a better one, that one obviously doesnt work with your barrel and choke. If I were you, Id invite a few freinds over, and have a bit of fun... buy one of everything and split the costs, that way everyone will know what works best for their guns too.
 
xeon said:
Havent you ever heard that different loads work with different barrels? Keep trying till you find a better one, that one obviously doesnt work with your barrel and choke. If I were you, Id invite a few freinds over, and have a bit of fun... buy one of everything and split the costs, that way everyone will know what works best for their guns too.
Click to expand...

I am well aware that different loads/shot size have different effects on different guns and different chokes - much like the ladies....they behave differently depending on what you allow them to drink. Wine = fun tequila = danger or argument.

Anyhow.....as I mentioned in my last post I tested my arrangement extensively (28" bbl, Undertake Choke) with the following loads:

Winchester 3" #6 HV
Winchester 3" #6 Double X
Winchester 3" #5 Double X
Kent 3" #6
Winchester 3" #6 Xtended Range

But when I changed barrels and chokes (Primos) all I had to compare was the 3" #5 Winchester Double X and the Hevi 13 #5. My point was that I am unsure why a shell worth three times the price performs like crap compared to an inexpensive Double X Magnum!
 
Set-up

My set up is a standard Winchester 1300 Black Shadow c/w a 22" turkey barrel (cones lengthened) and a Primos (tight wad) turkey choke. I also have added adjustable fiber rifle sights for accuracy.

So far I am sticking with the Double X Magnums #5's :dancingbanana:

.....but I am still going to try the follwing in 3":

Federal Flight Control #5
Xtended Range #5 & #6
Winchester HV #5 & #6
 
The Hevishot.com FAQ section might help you out a bit, and they seem to have better luck with the Remington shotguns, and they give you specific ranges for the choke sizes ect.
 
Its your Choke , thats the problem of why Hevi-13 is not performing.

Cheap chokes will shoot some shells over others and this is what you have seen. Chilly asked you your choke size and you never came back with the size. Most turkey hunters take the step into a aftermarket choke but the price still misleads the hunter. Most can not make themselves pay $100 for a choke when you can get a choke for $40.00 that says turkey on it. Most asume that all turkey chokes will perform the same way, thats wrong.

If your looking for a choke that will work wonders on #5-#6 shot go with .665 constriction and most times with a long taper. These cheaper chokes are short taper chokes that are cheaper to make.

Winchester HV loads are hard to beet, but with the proper constriction your pattern will target a more even and dencer pattern...

Don't worry about how many pellets hit the vitals as much as the form around the vital areas. That turkey safety corse just mixed most turkey hunters up when it came to patterning guns, by saying that its all the vital area that is concerned.
 
Adrian J Hare said:
Its your Choke , thats the problem of why Hevi-13 is not performing.

Cheap chokes will shoot some shells over others and this is what you have seen. Chilly asked you your choke size and you never came back with the size. Most turkey hunters take the step into a aftermarket choke but the price still misleads the hunter. Most can not make themselves pay $100 for a choke when you can get a choke for $40.00 that says turkey on it. Most asume that all turkey chokes will perform the same way, thats wrong.

If your looking for a choke that will work wonders on #5-#6 shot go with .665 constriction and most times with a long taper. These cheaper chokes are short taper chokes that are cheaper to make.

Winchester HV loads are hard to beet, but with the proper constriction your pattern will target a more even and dencer pattern...

Don't worry about how many pellets hit the vitals as much as the form around the vital areas. That turkey safety corse just mixed most turkey hunters up when it came to patterning guns, by saying that its all the vital area that is concerned.
Click to expand...

Yeah Adrian is bang on... You really cannot tell much about your pattern with an individual load just by counting how many pellets are in the vitals on one target.

Chilly and I are going to test some chokes and loads in various barrels next month. Long taper, Stripper and non stripper chokes... hevi shot.. flight control wads... chrio and back bored, and chrome lined barrels and short vs long barrels... chronograph.. the whole shebang.:runaway:
If anyone in the area is interested you are welcome to come down and pattern your gun and test some loads at my range.... send me a P.M and I'll let you know when and where.:cool:
 
Adrian J Hare said:
Its your Choke , thats the problem of why Hevi-13 is not performing.

Cheap chokes will shoot some shells over others and this is what you have seen. Chilly asked you your choke size and you never came back with the size. Most turkey hunters take the step into a aftermarket choke but the price still misleads the hunter. Most can not make themselves pay $100 for a choke when you can get a choke for $40.00 that says turkey on it. Most asume that all turkey chokes will perform the same way, thats wrong.

If your looking for a choke that will work wonders on #5-#6 shot go with .665 constriction and most times with a long taper. These cheaper chokes are short taper chokes that are cheaper to make.

Winchester HV loads are hard to beet, but with the proper constriction your pattern will target a more even and dencer pattern...

Don't worry about how many pellets hit the vitals as much as the form around the vital areas. That turkey safety corse just mixed most turkey hunters up when it came to patterning guns, by saying that its all the vital area that is concerned.
Click to expand...

Adrian,
Thanks for the reply. I apologise for not getting back to Chilly....the choke size was 0.660

I'm glad you responded as I was not sure why this....no not a $40.00 choke but rather a $15.00 choke (on sale at Cabela's bargin cave) did such a dis-service to the Hevi 13. Now that you mention it .......it would make more sense that a harder shot would need a longer (or more gradual tube) than a softer material like lead/copper.

Now I am going to stick my neck on the line here (as I know you are an seasoned vet) as I sit here in my office staring at my Winchester Double X target @ 40 yds I would have to think I am staring at a dead turkey regardless of what I threw at it - hevi or copper plated lead? I understand that hitting power is very important but with this even and dense pattern I would have to think I am still looking at a dead bird regardless.

I am suprised, as anyone, with the results but after seeing my results (and my best for far) why would I spend another $100+ for choke and $35.0/box for shells that would give me marginal better pattern than a cheap choke and cheaper shells? Or would I get a marginal better pattern by investing another $135.00 (choke and shells)?

Trust me I am as confused an anyone as to the science to this. There are so many variables to the equasion it would cost one well over $800.00 to find the best combo of gun/bbl/chokes and ammo with the selection we have to pick form.......almost the same $$ as we paid for the turkey gun itself!!

Well I guess the take away is that someone has to keep the manufacturers in business.......if we do not spend the $$ here we'll spend it somewhere else I guess:runaway:

Thanks again!

John
 
John , to start I'm not knocking you and your question here is a very good one.

Now that you have found a pattern from a Choke/shell combo, ask yourself :

How far of a distance can I get with this same pattern ?
Will this Choke/Shell perform the same at every shot taken ?

These are two questions that only testing will answer. Your pattern as above, was a very good one from what I could see and I believe you can make it better too. So many shooters take one shot and see the out come and walk away with a big grin and a wonderfull target, but you need to find if it will do it everytime you shoot. Test the same combo over a few times and see if there is a difference or they are all the same or close. Try different distances as well. You may have saved yourself a lot of money.

A gun setup in the proper way for turkey has its benefits. A good tight even pattern will make more damage to a head when the time comes that a little brush happens to be in the way. If you have the pattern that works the same every time then you have a shot pattern that acts like the rifle only in a large version.

Every turkey hunter out there wants a pattern like the remington advertizement where the whole load hits the turkey head and neck. Its not going to happen and you don't want it to do that either, because your going to have a lot of misses over the years.

The proper formula for a turkey guns pattern is % percentage. What kind of percentage of shot are you placing in and around the head. Most targets have a circle around the head/neck on the target, like your target has. This circle should take about 80% of the shot from the shell. As you say you have a died bird reguardless of how many shot hit the head/neck and as long as your combo does this all the time, then you should not have any problems.

Good chokes allow a gun to consistantly pattern at a max range. My max is 40 yards and I know everytime I squeeze off the bird is died, so died that last year my wife used the gun in Florida and miss judged a shot and killed a bird in his tracks at 60 yards. Not a range I like to shoot or either her but the last couple years she's been having problems seeing distances and this way one of the ways we found out. The suprising thing was the gun is a 20 gauge turkey gun shooting Hevi-13 #6.

Your opinion about your target is right but now you need to follow up with that combo and make sure its really what you want. As for the hitting power of shells, sorry I think its all hog wash any shell that patterns good at 40 yards will kill the bird....
 
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Most Heavy shot turkey loads perform best with a more open constriction. Your .660 is a little longer taper than a standard choke but no where near a Kick's or Carlson or even a Rhino. It also is not a ported choke or directionally ported "stripper" style. Why does this matter??? Well those gases behind that wad will blast through it upon exit from the choke and toss it off center as the wad opens and slows almost immediately like an air break. So what does your pattern do?? That's different with each gun. I use a Kicks Gobblin' Thunder .655 directional ported choke in my 21" smooth bore 11-87 3" turkey gun and it patterns really well out to 40 yards with #6 winchester extended range 3" load. Now when I go to my 23" and 26" barrels on my 11-87 and 870 I screw the Kicks GT .665 in and it seems to match the performance of the .655 in the shorter barrel. These chokes are a long taper choke with ports drilled at a 45 degree angle and a very nice crown which I find really adds to my pattern density. With my recent purchase of an Benelli SBE with a 26" crio barrel, I purchased another Kicks GT in .665 to run 3.5" 2 ounce loads through. Yes I bought Redd one too!!! My Benelli came with a .665 Carlson crio plus choke with 90 degree ports and minimal crown but with an even longer taper. It will be an interesting comparison! I've found over the years that a perfectly clean barrel and choke will not pattern as well as a once fired one....why??? I figure the plastic wad residue in the barrel bore and choke helps slow the wad and shot and actually provides some stability, creating a more even shot pattern. One thing you might want to check is the fit of your choke in the threads of the barrel. Some do not fit perfectly flush and centered and actual have a ridge you can feel. This will definately blow your pattern and will need to be addressed.
 
I shoot a 10 gauge and reload for turkey, testing with different hulls, primers, etc with a Browning and a Comp N Choke. I have found that the oz going out the barrel made a biggest difference on paper. The 2 1/4 oz puts a lot of holes all over the paper but in my barrel/choke a 1 7/8 oz puts more holes in the circle/ kill zone up to 50+ yards. I limit my shooting to 30 yards because putting holes in paper is not the same as putting holes in flesh.
 
The comp n choke is actually made in the same factory as the Kicks chokes and is owned by the same guy. They act very much the same in stripping the wad and venting the gases away from your shot string. They both have nice crowns. It interesting to hear that less "load" makes a difference in your pattern. Is the volocity the same or do your pick it up in the lighter loads? Could be a marriage of both thats working for you. You should crony them and see! Do you buffer your hand loads or run straight pellets on each other? Would be interesting to try a combo load which would have #5's on top of 6's....like the old Remington Duplex loads or the Nitro's
 
Chilly I have not put them through a chrony and just go by the book speed with no buffer. My choke performes best with #4 but it can also shoot 5 or 6's and I will have to try the two layer load. I also plan on trying reloads in my 12 gauge with 3.5", 3" and 2.75"
 
The addition of buffer material in your loads should help with the "bump effect" and inprove your pattern. Something you might want to look into I would think.
 
Results

Adrian,
That does make more sence....and you are right. Curiosity will probably get the best of me and I will probably note this combo and be out in the spring testing yet another combo so see 'what if'.

Thanks again,

John
 
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