Interesting post from the owner or manager of a major gun range in Las Vegas

Canuck44

Canuck44

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For those who are so struck on the Glock the following might be of interest. The guy speaks from actual experience. He is quite positive in his comments regarding the Glock so don't be offended. I doubt there are many here who have guns with the usage this guys range has.

It is from a post on AR15.com located here: https://www.ar15.com/forums/handguns/High-round-count-pistols--100-000---observations/4-160140/?

Of you take the time to read through the post there is a lot of info on various guns and the issues with them.

"Hi folks,

I have been answering questions for the AK guys for about two weeks now regarding AK's with 100,000+ rounds and what type of issues we see. Well, we have pistols that have over 100,000 rounds and I can provide a little info.

The background for the high round count is that we are rental-only range one block off the Las Vegas Strip (called Battlefield Vegas) and after all the talk about AK's, I completely spaced on the reliability of the pistols we use on the line everyday of the year except for Christmas. We go through approximately 150,000-180,000 rounds combined of 9mm, .45, .50AE, .500S&W, .38 Special, .380 and 9mm Makarov each month. I don't count .22 because even though we go through 1,000's of rounds, it's not in the same class as our standard calibers.

I can tell you that even though I am not a "Glock guy", it is the most reliable handgun in our inventory and I would trust it with my life. We use Gen1-Gen4 17's on the line and they are the most hassle-free handgun we have. I used my original Gen1 17 when we first opened two and a half years ago and it finally broke about six months ago. When I say broke, Glock's pretty much are the only handgun that suffer a "catastrophic" break. The slide cracks right at the narrow portion at the ejection port. They will continue to fire most of the time but the rounds group at the top right corner of the target. The factory recoil springs are amazing because the just keep going. The Glock gets used probably 10X as much as our Beretta M92's so it's not a fair to say the Beretta is more reliable (see below). We don't use aftermarket slides on our Glocks so I couldn't give you any info those because Glock will replace our cracked slides under warranty. Also, I don't meant to give the impression that breake slides all the time but it would be fair to say that they get at least 100,000 rounds before cracking.

My personal favorite, the Sig P226 doesn't fair as well. We go through more recoil springs in our 226's than any other weapon system combined. We've yet to break a slide but they will not function with a broken recoil spring.

Our Desert Eagle .50AE's run pretty reliable but the part that fails the most is the piston. We always have a few spares in the shop.

Our Beretta M92's...the one that all the RSO's hate, also hold up very well. In the last two years with the same four Beretta's, we've only replaced one barrel and "locking piece" that sits under the barrel. The M92 is only included in one package that we offer or the customer has to request that pistol specifically. It doesn't get run nearly as hard as the 1911's, Glock's or Sig's.

I will get more info on our 1911's (we use Sig, Springfield and Armscor) and I know I see them tagged for repair more often than the other pistols. I will find out what is the most common issue.

V/R
Ron M Cheney"


If you read through the while thread he later comments the issue with the Beretta 92 was a failed locking block not a barrel. The locking blocks on the Model 92 are known to be a consumable part that does require replacing.

Take Care

Bob
 
I agree on the P226 springs, they last only 5000-10,000rds before they're done. The trigger bar is the next to wear out after that. But other than those two things, the P226 will last well past 100,000rds.
 
The Gen 4 Glocks are failing between 20K and 30K rounds due to slide cracks. That surprised me. Glock apparently is quite good at replacing the slides &/or guns that do fail. The author says they are the best of the gun manufacturers for standing behind their product.

I was interested to learn the first of his four 92FS developed a frame crack after 3 years and over 150,00 rds. There guns do take a beating. Very interesting information.

The owner is quite high on the FN Five Seven pistol. One of our members who shoots IDPA with us bought one and does quite well with it. He can make the darn thing sing.

Take Care

Bob
 
Canuck44 said:
The Gen 4 Glocks are failing between 20K and 30K rounds due to slide cracks. That surprised me. Glock apparently is quite good at replacing the slides &/or guns that do fail. The author says they are the best of the gun manufacturers for standing behind their product.

I was interested to learn the first of his four 92FS developed a frame crack after 3 years and over 150,00 rds. There guns do take a beating. Very interesting information.

The owner is quite high on the FN Five Seven pistol. One of our members who shoots IDPA with us bought one and does quite well with it. He can make the darn thing sing.

Take Care

Bob
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From what I gather, the 5.7mm round is quite flat shooting and low recoil. Darn small holes though! Amazing that someone competes in IDPA with that gun. The ammo cost alone....!!
 
One thing that strikes me as odd reading through the ARF.com thread is that they don't keep an accurate round count on their guns which in and of itself is mind blowingly irresponsible from a business perspective.
 
rkm456 said:
One thing that strikes me as odd reading through the ARF.com thread is that they don't keep an accurate round count on their guns which in and of itself is mind blowingly irresponsible from a business perspective.
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I don't think any commercial range does that. The logistics of keeping accurate round count for hundred's of guns would make it cost prohibitive.
 
rkm456 said:
One thing that strikes me as odd reading through the ARF.com thread is that they don't keep an accurate round count on their guns which in and of itself is mind blowingly irresponsible from a business perspective.
Click to expand...

I'm neither shocked nor surprised. All of their firearms are consumable, and all of their respective parts are consumable. When things break, they are replaced. They keep track of high wear items, and keep those in stock in corresponding numbers. Catastrophic failures are unlikely and uncommon with quality ammunition.

Every gun needs to be kept in stock, regardless of how well it actually performs or how frequently it breaks, because that's what the customer is there for. The 1911's go down 10x more frequently than the Glock, but are just as commonly requested, so they keep them running. Anytime a gun goes down while in a customer's possession, it is replaced, or the customer comped with more ammo and time on different guns. It's a fantastic business model.

Bradley
 
capp325 said:
I don't think any commercial range does that. The logistics of keeping accurate round count for hundred's of guns would make it cost prohibitive.
Click to expand...

Why wouldn't they?

The packages they sell are based on round count, and the guns used are checked in and out. Keeping round count would be extremely easy to do and would help mitigate operating costs. Having the guns off the line completely costs more than routine maintenance.
 
Canuck44 said:
The Gen 4 Glocks are failing between 20K and 30K rounds due to slide cracks. That surprised me. Glock apparently is quite good at replacing the slides &/or guns that do fail. The author says they are the best of the gun manufacturers for standing behind their product.

I was interested to learn the first of his four 92FS developed a frame crack after 3 years and over 150,00 rds. There guns do take a beating. Very interesting information.

The owner is quite high on the FN Five Seven pistol. One of our members who shoots IDPA with us bought one and does quite well with it. He can make the darn thing sing.

Take Care

Bob
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Five-seven for idpa? I just had to go re-check rules and it still says minimum of 9x19 (.380acp for BuG)
 
rkm456 said:
Why wouldn't they?

The packages they sell are based on round count, and the guns used are checked in and out. Keeping round count would be extremely easy to do and would help mitigate operating costs. Having the guns off the line completely costs more than routine maintenance.
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Have you ever been at one of these places in Vegas, during peak times? Short staffed, with a line snaking around the store. Sometimes people rent multiple guns at a time and may use more rounds in one gun than another. So the package round counts may not match what is actually used.

Just fix it when it's broken. No big deal.
 
Canuck44 said:
The Gen 4 Glocks are failing between 20K and 30K rounds due to slide cracks. That surprised me. Glock apparently is quite good at replacing the slides &/or guns that do fail. The author says they are the best of the gun manufacturers for standing behind their product.

I was interested to learn the first of his four 92FS developed a frame crack after 3 years and over 150,00 rds. There guns do take a beating. Very interesting information.

The owner is quite high on the FN Five Seven pistol. One of our members who shoots IDPA with us bought one and does quite well with it. He can make the darn thing sing.

Take Care

Bob
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Most rental ranges abuse the sh*t out of their guns. Recoil spring replacements are not done at the suggested intervals for starters.

capp325 said:
I don't think any commercial range does that. The logistics of keeping accurate round count for hundred's of guns would make it cost prohibitive.
Click to expand...

I know of one for sure that tracks all rounds fired through their rentals, it's done through the POS system.
 
rkm456 said:
Why wouldn't they?

The packages they sell are based on round count, and the guns used are checked in and out. Keeping round count would be extremely easy to do and would help mitigate operating costs. Having the guns off the line completely costs more than routine maintenance.
Click to expand...
So you are going to have staff manually record the round count of every weapon on the range? How do you envision that process? Let's say someone walks in and wants to rent an AK47, AR-15, 1911 and Glock 17. The customer wants 60 rounds of 5.56, 50 rounds of 7.62 x 39, 20 rounds of .45 and 25 rounds of 9mm. The clerk then retrieves the guns from the rack, checks serial numbers, opens up a database on his computer, locates the particular guns in the database, adds the number of rounds purchased by the customer to the lifetime total for each gun, then hands the guns and ammo to the customer (meanwhile, other customers are lining up behind). Half-an-hour later, the same customer wants another 50 rounds of 9mm and 20 rounds of 5.56. The clerk has to get the serial numbers again, find the guns in the database, and update the total. Do you have any idea how time consuming this process is going to be? It would be much cheaper to replace guns more often due to insufficient maintenance than hire more staff and/or not be able to serve as many customers for the sake of maintaining meticulous records.
 
Does anyone track the round count through their own pistols?
I have a hard enough time these days to book time to go shooting, nevermind ticking off how many rounds I've tallied.
 
beltfed said:
Does anyone track the round count through their own pistols?
I have a hard enough time these days to book time to go shooting, nevermind ticking off how many rounds I've tallied.
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Yup round count and manufacture of ammo and if there's a issue I record the lot # as well.
 
capp325 said:
You mean they track the number of rounds purchased? How would they know which gun the ammo is being shot in?
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If you read all his posts he gets his data from the rental records. With computers it really isn't all that hard. He also, at one point discounts his information to ensure the figures are on the low side. He would know, without much effort, how many rounds are consumed each month by caliber from his inventory sheets and his purchases. I have never been to his operation so I would not hazard a guess as to what information trails he has on ammo/pistol combos. He certainly has no favourites, all his posts are rather matter of fact. If you page through all the thread he has pictures of the broken slides. I was surprised how few rounds the Gen 4 Glocks were taking before slides were cracking and how often they changed springs in the guns. I had not heard of this issue before. He does say how good the Glock warranty is and how Glock had the best return policy of any of the manufactures he deals with.

He says his operation consumes between 150,000 and 180,000 rds per month of 9mm, .45, .50AE, .500S&W, .38 Special, .380 and 9mm Makarov .

One take away the thread gave me the fact that all of the pistol designs he rents out fail at some point. One of the four 92's he has available had a cracked frame after 150,000 rds and three + years of rental use. Say I shoot 200 rounds every weekend for practice for six months of the year. That would represent almost 29 years of use for me. (150,000/(26x200). I have shot as much as 8,000 rds in one year which would only take me about 19 years. I don't average that many rounds anymore. I do shoot about 150 rds per week average for five months of the year though I would think, sometimes a lot more, sometimes a lot less. For all practical purposes most of the gun designs he uses would last a lot of shooters their lifetime and then some.

Take Care

Bob
ps In 2006 I did track my Tanfoglio "L" model. That year I shot it 5261 times. It was not the only gun I used but for that gun that year. There you go. I should really get around to changing the recoil spring in the gun, I guess. The gun is still as tight as the day I bought it and has lost none of it's accuracy.
 
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Kidd X said:
Most rental ranges abuse the sh*t out of their guns. Recoil spring replacements are not done at the suggested intervals for starters.



I know of one for sure that tracks all rounds fired through their rentals, it's done through the POS system.
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Well in his case you could not be more wrong. He states his Glocks get their springs changed every 30 days and in one post suggests he is about to reduce the time to every three weeks in an effort to reduce the amount of failures. I have never read where Glock requires changing the springs out on their guns every 30 days as a suggested time interval.

I am not sure why a high volume gun range would abuse their gun inventory. It makes no sense. It is the high usage that wears on the guns. I doubt their are many here who would claim to have shot 100,000 rounds in any one of their guns.

Take Care

Bob
 
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