International Trap is Difficult!

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I've been shooting some International Trap at our local club now for a few months (actually its a wobble trap designed to simulate International). Just when I think I'm getting it figured out...things go back down hill. Dang this game is hard!!! I've shot as high as a 21 (once) and usually average around 17. Today I shot a 9. Any one else frustrated with this game yet? :)
 
What makes the game fun is the level you have to be on to score well. Distractions wreck havoc with your game so, yes, it's frustrating.

Personally, I score better in practice at my home range. In competition, there's something about the additional pressure, or the backgrounds at various ranges, perhaps. Whatever it is, I become more inconsistent.
 
I am jealous of the fact you have a set up to practice on. The bunker at AHEIA never works.

Yes, we are very fortunate to have a wobble trap here. A member of the Canadian team lives and practices here. He built and installed the entire setup, and its very nice. You can set the thrower to stay stationary for practice, or turn on just elevation or just rotation. Its definately a hard game worthy of the Olympics.
 
The biggest problem with shooting bunker is that it makes American trap quite boring!

I believe there is such a game as American Trap, although I'm not certain. For the sake of new shooters who may misinterpret the acronym, ATA stands for "Amateur Trap Association".

This may shed some light on why it seems boring after you get into the International game.

Len has a nice setup in Hinton. NASA, in cooperation with the Beaverhill Club, has a similar setup east of Edmonton.

True bunkers throw a much more limited variety of targets than do wobble traps, though. In competition, true bunkers throw exactly the same number of lefts, rights, and straight-aways for each shooter. Wobble traps are random for all shooters. For this reason, some rounds can seem easier than others.
 
So, enlighten me. What's the difference between International Trap and American Trap? I don't even know what kind I shoot.

ATA/American Trap. Shooters stand level to the trap house. Birds come out at approx 55km/hr. The trap machine never varies the elevation, rotation is varied by 60 degrees. Scores of 25/25 are common for experienced and inexperienced shooters alike.

International/Olympic/Bunker Trap. Shooters stand above the trap house. Birds come out at approx 90km/hr. The trap machine varies the elevation by 30 degrees and rotation by 90 degrees. The shooter can take 2 shoots at each bird. As mentioned above, our setup is a single trap machine called a wobble trap. In true International there are 15 machines throwing birds, 3 for each station. The purposes of this is to throw the exact same number of straight aways, lefts and rights for each shooter. Scores of 25/25 are rare for experienced shooters. I've seen inexperienced shooters fire off 100 rounds and only hit a couple of birds. In ATA, you can wait until the bird is almost ready to hit the ground, shoot, and still break the bird. International, forget about it. You have to be Johnny quick draw and get that bird ASAP, otherwise they get to far out and the shot wont break the bird. Oh, and the birds are also designed to fly faster and made of a harder material, so they dont break as easy. This game will keep you coming back for more.
 
Just a point of clarification, in ATA trap, the rotation depends very much on how a particular club has set up their machine. The minimum rotation is about 35 degrees and the max is about 85 degrees. Anything in between is considered legal.

Does anyone have factual info on how fast trap targets are actually thrown. I have seen 40mph, 50mph, 55mph and 55kmph for ATA. For International I have seen 100mph, 110mph and the 90kmph in the thread above. I am curious more than anything.

The comments about the challenge in International Trap in the above threads are also interesting. I keep hearing that shooters don't come to the range to shoot, they come to break targets, therefore targets need to be set easy so everyone has a good score and goes home happy. Sort of raises the question, why not just shut off the oscillation on the trap machine, turn down the spring, move everyone to shoot from a position just behind the trap house and now everyone will be happy??
 
Just a point of clarification, in ATA trap, the rotation depends very much on how a particular club has set up their machine. The minimum rotation is about 35 degrees and the max is about 85 degrees. Anything in between is considered legal.

Does anyone have factual info on how fast trap targets are actually thrown. I have seen 40mph, 50mph, 55mph and 55kmph for ATA. For International I have seen 100mph, 110mph and the 90kmph in the thread above. I am curious more than anything.

The comments about the challenge in International Trap in the above threads are also interesting. I keep hearing that shooters don't come to the range to shoot, they come to break targets, therefore targets need to be set easy so everyone has a good score and goes home happy. Sort of raises the question, why not just shut off the oscillation on the trap machine, turn down the spring, move everyone to shoot from a position just behind the trap house and now everyone will be happy??

Our club has both ATA and International. Most everyone at our club shots ATA, very few shoot International. This is because International presents a serious challenge, and it can be frustrating when you hit few birds. The idea is to play a game that isnt easy. Sometimes we will turn off the elevation and/or rotation on the International machine, but this is only done to practice hitting a certain bird. Personally, I like shooting International more than ATA. I like ATA as well, because it helps raise my confidence level back up after I get my a$$ waxed on International.
 
Does anyone have factual info on how fast trap targets are actually thrown. I have seen 40mph, 50mph, 55mph and 55kmph for ATA. For International I have seen 100mph, 110mph and the 90kmph in the thread above. I am curious more than anything.

The comments about the challenge in International Trap in the above threads are also interesting. I keep hearing that shooters don't come to the range to shoot, they come to break targets, therefore targets need to be set easy so everyone has a good score and goes home happy. Sort of raises the question, why not just shut off the oscillation on the trap machine, turn down the spring, move everyone to shoot from a position just behind the trap house and now everyone will be happy??

Well, I can't speak for American Trap, as it's governed by ATA standards, but bunker is strictly governed by the ISSF rulebook which does not stipulate a speed, but rather a distance that all targets must traverse: every bird thrown must travel between 75 and 77 metres. This means that targets thrown higher are ejected with less force, as the trajectory keeps the bird in the air longer. Low targets come out faster to make the same distance. Depending on the elevation of the bunker and subsequent air density, the fastest birds can exceed 110 miles per hour. To deal with the increased acceleration, international target are indeed slightly heavier. At Vancouver Gun Club we really need to crank them out since the club actually sits at three feet below sea level. That's why you never see a consistent speed assigned to international target; it varies from target to target.

The other factor to consider is that bunker ammunition is limited to 24 grams; slightly less than 7/8th of an ounce. This is reduced from decades ago, and will probably be reduced again when the scores demand the ISSF make the game even more difficult. It is nice for those of us that reload though!

As for variety of shots, it depends on how often the people running the bunker change the setup. In a true bunker/international (as opposed to wobble) setup, there is no oscillation. What there is is 15 traps all pre-set for a given angle, elevation, and velocity. In front of each shooting station there will be three machines; one throwing left, another a straightaway (within 15 degrees of straight, anyway), and another throwing a right. The rulebook states that targets cannot be thrown at more than 45 degrees to the right or left, and much be between 1 and 4 metres in elevation at the 10 yard mark. We change ours relatively often, and have two bunkers to shoot, just in case we feel like changing things up. They also get changed again before each competition.

I personally enjoy the challenge. But then again, I don't go to the club to break targets, I go to improve. Also, I enjoy the people that I shoot with. Most of the people that shoot bunker at Vancouver Gun Club came across as a bit less than friendly when I first started, but it's merely that they take the game quite seriously and don't really appreciate the howdy-doody attitude a lot of the casual shooters have.

If anyone is curious about it, I would definitely tell them to give it a try. It's insanely humbling for the first few days, but once you get the hang of it, there's a lot of depth to it.

This is the final round from one of the Chile World Cup (shooting actually starts at 10 minutes or so):

[youtube]G0Bitquh_3M[/youtube]
 
Salter, you should come to Vancouver to see how fast they go, I can guarantee it will always be too fast :D

The speed changes quite a lot between shots and different ranges, because the controlling parameter is the distance the target flies (76 meters, versus I think 40 or so yards for American Trap), and the elevation can vary between 1.5m to 3.5 m at 10 m out of the gate. So the lower targets are going very very fast, whereas the higher targets are going significantly slower. Also if the particular range is at a higher elevation, the targets will have a slower initial speed. The speed difference between shots more than the absolute maximum speed is what makes the game even more difficult, in my opinion, because it means you really have to focus on the target before you move your gun and can never coast through like in American (no "grooving," the focus/zone must never go away).

If you want to learn more, Derek Partridge has a very good series of articles about the old version of bunker (the only thing that has changed since he wrote the articles is that we now use only 24 gram, 1350 ft/s loads instead of the larger 32 g pigeon loads back in the day):

1)http://www.bunkershooting.com/challenge.html

2)http://www.bunkershooting.com/DereksCorner_1.html

EDIT: What dfritter wrote above, didn't see the second page of replies before I wrote mine. Though I disagree with dfritter about it being humbling for the first few days, it bloody well will humble you constantly, even after you start breaking 24s and 25s. To be halfway decent requires a lot of commitment. Most bunker shooters will only shoot bunker, with the occasional round of sporting to lighten the mood. But there is nothing quite like a straight run in bunker, no other shooting sport I've tried has matched it. No other sport, either.
 
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