Interpret my ladder please

safehunter

safehunter

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I ran another ladder for my 30-30 (w94) using LVR and FTX. After my previous ladder I settled on 34 grains of LVR for the best group and frankly was happy with that until I got a Hornady reloading manual that has a max that's a grain and a half over hodgdon's (37 vs 35.5). Afraid I'm missing out on a higher velocity accuracy node I made another ladder from 34 to 37 grains in 1/2 grain increments and shot it at 100.

Results seem ambiguous. Seems I probably need more that 5 bullets per weight or need to move up from 100 as the old eyes and irons may be the accuracy problem here.

Regardless, if you can gleam anything from my targets I'd be interested in hearing your opinion.

Thanks in advance,

Safehunter

ps. If you click on the image it'll open up a high res version

 
You may want to shoot a ladder on a single target to see relative results.

Several groups (34, 34.5 and 4 out of 5 shots of 35.5 and 36) looked promising - maybe check sight and other bolt torque to make sure that this is not a source of "flyers" - but as you are using irons, this can contribute for sure.

Also, do you have access to a chronograph? It would be good to see velocities along with the on-target results. You could shoot say 3 shots at each charge level across a chrony and quickly determine whether there is a "flat spot" on the velocity vs. charge plot - that is, an area where the velocities do not vary significantly with increases in charge level. If this charge weight correlates with low vertical dispersion on the target, then that is a promising load range - maybe run some more loads at 0.2 grain increments on that range.

Are you seating to a consistent depth, and using a comparator to confirm depth? Have you measured the chamber? How far are you seating off the lands?

I tend not to fuss about seating depth until the basic charge weight is narrowed down a bit.

Hope this helps!
 
no chrony I'm afraid. That'd be nice for sure.

I trim brass and caliper the seating depth. They are consistent (+- a few thou). I haven't measured the chamber or played with seating depth. No idea about the lands. I just use the COAL from the manual. I will say that the squishy FTX makes seating consistent a PITA but I'm pretty good now with consistent pressure on the single stage press.
 
cosmic said:
If you are shooting iron sights, they are likely the controlling accuracy factor, not the powder charge or the bullet spec.
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I agree with this. I would never attempt to differentiate between such subtle differences as are generated by a "ladder" test (and I don't think this is one, actually) without more precise sighting tools. Your results will be completely unreliable.
 
You can get away doing OCW type load development at 100m with irons but it's harder to interpret the results. Target selection for consistent sight picture is critical.

What you have here is just a load test, not a ladder test. 34gn looks fine, as does 35.5 (one flyer). I'd probably load for best grouping and go shoot as the rifle isn't going to put them all in one hole anyway.
 
Thanks to thenerdboy and firearmsenthusiast for providing some constructive opinions. I've loaded up 50 rounds, 25 at 34 grains and 25 at 35.5. I'll fire them off and see which works.

Obviously I'm an imperfect person doing imperfect tests within the usual constraints of time, money and ability. However the best I can do is the best I can do. If you don't think it's worth it then you didn't look at the different group sizes between targets.
 
If i had to guess given 30/30 with irons i would say 35.5 looks most promising.

35.5 4 shots grouped in under 1 1/4 moa with 1 outlier
34 4 shots grouped under 1 5/8 moa with 1 outlier

your 34grn group was most likely shot first when your concentration and focus was freshest
your 34 load was also the softest shooting...less gun movement

As you have loaded up 34 and 35.5 try and shoot the 35.5 first to see if the group tightens up. MY guess is it will.

Bring a buddy with you and have him shoot the rifle as well. compare groups

BIG Caveat you might get better results in general with the 34grn load because it is softer to shot for multiple shots.

If this is a tree stand or short range deer rifle where one shot is all you will be taking i believe 35.5 is your load.

Best of Luck
Trevor
 
safehunter said:
Thanks to thenerdboy and firearmsenthusiast for providing some constructive opinions. I've loaded up 50 rounds, 25 at 34 grains and 25 at 35.5. I'll fire them off and see which works.

Obviously I'm an imperfect person doing imperfect tests within the usual constraints of time, money and ability. However the best I can do is the best I can do. If you don't think it's worth it then you didn't look at the different group sizes between targets.
Click to expand...

Wow! You get feedback that your method may not be able to produce results that are meaningful, and you take it as a personal attack on your "imperfections" and constraints of time, money and ability. Really??

I will repeat my suggestion. You need a more precise method of measurement than you are using to get results that mean anything in terms of science. The different group sizes and shapes may well be simply a result of the inherent inaccuracy of your test methods rather than any inherent differences between the loads themselves. So the test you ran means very little. That is not a personal attack; it is my interpretation of your test - which is what you asked for. The fact you don't like the "interpretations" you got, and "interpreted" those reactions as a personal attack is more than a bit defensive, and reveals that you do not understand the concept of "ladder testing" well enough.

Take the advice you got from your post and you may well develop a good load for your gun. Ignore the advice and you may not. That's the best advice I can give you.
 
OP, not giving you a hard time here. I suspect you are after extra velocity from your loads?????

Once you reach a certain point, which happens very quickly in a 30-30 an extra 1-2 grains will give minimal if any noticeable velocity change. You might get slightly less than a 1% increase.

That little lever action seems to shoot quite well, from your pics and it looks like you shoot it well. Many poo poo the 30-30 but Townsend Whelan used one on his famous BC hunt with great success and at the time the cartridge and rifle were considered to be state of the art. That's a high recommendation for any shooting platform IMHO.
 
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