IPSC 3-Gun match scoring?

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alpining

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Does anyone here have experience with scoring IPSC 3-Gun matches?

My club has just started offering IPSC 3-Gun events, and I just realized that I actually have no idea how the match-level scoring will work. For now, we are scoring everyone as minor in every category just for simplicity's sake, and we can pool all stage results just as you'd do for an IPSC pistol match.

Scoring individual stages is easy enough (the same as for IPSC pistol), but how do you combine scores across firearm types to get an overall match result? I hope I am missing something very obvious...

There are two main issues I am up against:

1. How do divisions work at the match level? Or, are the "match results" done with pistol, rifle, and shotgun as separate categories of results (i.e. no overall winner)?

2. What software will allow you to score individual shooters as Major power factor in one stage and Minor in another? For example, Joe Blow shoots Classic Major pistol, Semiauto Standard Minor rifle, and Standard Manual shotgun (all shotgun scored as major).

Any help is appreciated! :D
 
WinMss scores them as a tournament. You set up 3 different matches in WinMss (one pistol, one shotgun, one rifle) and import them into the tournament. The individual matches are set up according to the competitors Division, Power Factor etc. You can shoot minor in one portion of the tournament and major in another...because they are scored as separate matches.
 
Sosa said:
Are you shooting SGGC this weekend. Come find me and we can chat. There are several options.
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Thanks Sosa. Unfortunately, I didn't get in for Sunday, so I deregistered for Saturday. Too much driving for one day of IPSC shooting - I'll save that for WRAS 3-Gun! :D I really like what WRAS does with divisions and scoring, but I'm trying to find the "IPSC-specific" solution.

Quigley said:
WinMss scores them as a tournament. You set up 3 different matches in WinMss (one pistol, one shotgun, one rifle) and import them into the tournament. The individual matches are set up according to the competitors Division, Power Factor etc. You can shoot minor in one portion of the tournament and major in another...because they are scored as separate matches.
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Thanks for that, I've never looked at the tournament feature in WinMSS. Can you describe how it weights the separate matches to give a tournament winner? And what do the tournament overall scores look like? How are division classifications addressed?
 
alpining said:
Thanks for that, I've never looked at the tournament feature in WinMSS. Can you describe how it weights the separate matches to give a tournament winner? And what do the tournament overall scores look like? How are division classifications addressed?
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It doesn't weight matches (simply adds competitor percentages from individual matches) and it doesn't take classification into the account. You can read IPSC GT rules at http://www.ipsc.org/pdf/RulesGT.pdf

All in all IPSC GT rules are not well thought (e.g. you can shoot 100% in revolver division for handgun match and your 100% will count toward your Open GT results, which doesn't make any sense) and that's probably the main reason why GT is not popular.

You will have more balanced scoring if you'll use timeplus with points scoring. For example, using 3GN or USPSA rule set. Those can be scored using simple excel spreadsheet or PractiScore app. Thought that won't be an IPSC match...

There was a movement to develop an unified 3gun rule set for IPSC Canada. Sean may have a better idea on the status of that.
 
Just to add a bit to Euegens post...

For IPSC 3 Gun...if you shoot open in any of the 3 matches...you are open for the overall tournament. So...

If you shoot Standard in SG, Standard or Prod in Pistol, and Open in Rifle...you score open for the tournament. It's good in that it allows you to shoot what you have...but it's bad because most people end up in Open ;) (usually because of rifle)

A perfect score (you win all 3 portion of the tournament) is 300 points
 
euxx said:
It doesn't weight matches (simply adds competitor percentages from individual matches) and it doesn't take classification into the account. You can read IPSC GT rules at http://www.ipsc.org/pdf/RulesGT.pdf

All in all IPSC GT rules are not well thought (e.g. you can shoot 100% in revolver division for handgun match and your 100% will count toward your Open GT results, which doesn't make any sense) and that's probably the main reason why GT is not popular.
...
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That's the simple solution that I was looking for! I didn't know there was a tournament rulebook, thanks.

For those not in the know, here's a quick breakdown. The IPSC Grand Tournament rulebook (linked by euxx, page 5) lays out three "Grand Tournament divisions": "Open", "Standard", and "Production" based on the individual competitor's combination of rifle, shotgun, and handgun divisions. Competitor percentage scores for rifle, shotgun, and handgun portions of the tournament are simply added together to get their Grand Tournament score. So, if a competitor wins each of the rifle, shotgun, and handgun portions, they would get a Grand Tournament score of 300 (as Quigley said). That allows you to make comparisons across rifle/shotgun/handgun divisions but within the Grand Tournament divisions.

It's a simple solution, and I like it at first blush. Maybe I am missing something: What's the objection to an individual's 100% in Revolver applying to Open GT results? I think that if someone "earned" 100% in any given division, then it should apply to their overall, regardless of whatever Grand Tournament Division they wind up in (as long as the minimum number of competitors show up for each applicable division). It gives some incentive for competitors to think outside the box in terms of divisions: Joe Blow has an Open rifle and Open shotgun and a revolver. Moe Schmoe has a Standard rifle and Standard shotgun and open pistol. They both wind up competing for Grand Tournament "Open" scores. It changes the dynamic in terms of division selection, but I don't see that it's a bad thing. However, I just started thinking about this about three minutes ago, so please let me know what I'm missing!

Yes, most people will find themselves in "GT Open" by virtue of having any optic on their rifle, but I see that as an incentive to run irons on the rifle so they can stay in "GT Standard". "GT Production" is kind of a waste in Canada, but I'm guessing it's there for other nations where manual action rifles are mandated or viable for some other reason.

Having the "GT Restricted" option gives more flexibility, too. In actual fact, since we're small at this point, we'd probably offer IPSC 3-Gun Grand Tournaments as "Restricted - Open/Open/Open" so that we can keep things simple and have everyone compete in one category. Or maybe two concurrent "restricted" Grand Tournaments to keep the Open Handgun shooters competing amongst themselves, if we get enough of them.
 
alpining said:
...It's a simple solution, and I like it at first blush. Maybe I am missing something: What's the objection to an individual's 100% in Revolver applying to Open GT results? I think that if someone "earned" 100% in any given division, then it should apply to their overall, regardless of whatever Grand Tournament Division they wind up in (as long as the minimum number of competitors show up for each applicable division). It gives some incentive for competitors to think outside the box in terms of divisions: Joe Blow has an Open rifle and Open shotgun and a revolver. Moe Schmoe has a Standard rifle and Standard shotgun and open pistol. They both wind up competing for Grand Tournament "Open" scores. It changes the dynamic in terms of division selection, but I don't see that it's a bad thing. However, I just started thinking about this about three minutes ago, so please let me know what I'm missing!
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The GT rules don't handle cross division competition at all. Compare this:

1st competitor: HG Revolver - 100%; SG Std Man - 100%; Rifle Open - 99%;
2st competitor: HG Production - 100%; SG Std - 100%; Rifle Open - 99%;
3st competitor: HG Classic - 100%; SG Modified - 100%; Rifle Open - 99%;
4st competitor: HG Open - 100%; SG Open - 100%; Rifle Open - 99%;

Basically for all 4 division winners of HG and SG matches whole GT match degraded to the Rifle match outcome. In other words, it doesn't matter how did they shoot against each other HG and SG matches.

The only way around that is to restrict divisions and force everyone to shoot GT divisions at individual matches, i.e. restricted division and run Open and Standard divisions only (since no one normally would run Standard Manual rifle, unless you are in Australia).

alpining said:
Which Sean is that?
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The one and only Sean. :)
 
Thanks for the detailed responses, euxx.

Here is my inexperience talking: Does that ever actually happen? It's hard to imagine the winners of four different handgun divisions also being the winners for four different shotgun divisions.

Also, does the overall number of competitors matter? We're fairly small, so for our club, I'd wager that we'd basically group competitors into Open and Standard for each of the handgun, rifle, and shotgun divisions. Fewer divisions means more direct competition, less problems like the one you outlined.

And the "Restricted GT" divisions workaround seems like a perfect solution, regardless. I'd really only be concerned about keeping the Open handgun shooters from competing against the Prod/Std/Clsc handgun shooters. To a lesser extent, Open shotguns (stage design can nerf their advantages a fair bit). So we could set up a Grand Tournament with two "Restricted GT" divisions: "Open handgun Open shotgun Open rifle", and "Standard handgun Standard shotgun Open rifle". Two groups competing against one another. It's not perfect, but we probably wouldn't have enough people to open up more divisions.
 
alpining said:
Thanks for the detailed responses, euxx.

Here is my inexperience talking: Does that ever actually happen? It's hard to imagine the winners of four different handgun divisions also being the winners for four different shotgun divisions.

Also, does the overall number of competitors matter? We're fairly small, so for our club, I'd wager that we'd basically group competitors into Open and Standard for each of the handgun, rifle, and shotgun divisions. Fewer divisions means more direct competition, less problems like the one you outlined.

And the "Restricted GT" divisions workaround seems like a perfect solution, regardless. I'd really only be concerned about keeping the Open handgun shooters from competing against the Prod/Std/Clsc handgun shooters. To a lesser extent, Open shotguns (stage design can nerf their advantages a fair bit). So we could set up a Grand Tournament with two "Restricted GT" divisions: "Open handgun Open shotgun Open rifle", and "Standard handgun Standard shotgun Open rifle". Two groups competing against one another. It's not perfect, but we probably wouldn't have enough people to open up more divisions.
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The concern is that someone notices that someone sees that say, zero competitors sign up for Revolver division for the pistol portion, signs up for Revolver, and collects their automatic 100% which then is contributed to the scores for the GT.

Restricting divisions does help alleviate this, but right now IPSC Ontario policy is that all divisions must be recognized regardless of the number of competitors. The board has been informed as to why this is an issue and is supposed to be looking into an updated policy for GT's but they have been busy organizing Provincials so nothing has happened.

The Restricted GT's just let you limit which divisions are offered for each component match and which GT divisions are offered. You don't get to make up new divisions with new names and you cannot dictate which of the available divisions a competitor declares; provided their equipment complies to the division requirements they must be allowed to compete in the division they declare.

Just my $0.02 but unless you have a REALLY small match I would not suggest lumping the Production HG division in with Standard HG. It's very difficult to compete with minor PF in Standard and more shooters in Ontario are shooting Production than any other division.
 
mechanik said:
...Restricting divisions does help alleviate this, but right now IPSC Ontario policy is that all divisions must be recognized regardless of the number of competitors...
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See Appendix A2 of the rule book:

---
Prior to the commencement of a match, the organizers must specify which Division(s) will be recognized.
Unless otherwise specified, IPSC sanctioned matches will recognize Divisions and Categories based on the number of
registered competitors...
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The first sentence doesn't contradict with IPSC Ontario policy. It's just most matches don't specify specific divisions, hence all divisions are recognized.
 
mechanik said:
The concern is that someone notices that someone sees that say, zero competitors sign up for Revolver division for the pistol portion, signs up for Revolver, and collects their automatic 100% which then is contributed to the scores for the GT.

...

Just my $0.02 but unless you have a REALLY small match I would not suggest lumping the Production HG division in with Standard HG. It's very difficult to compete with minor PF in Standard and more shooters in Ontario are shooting Production than any other division.
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For Level 1 and 2 matches, competitor scores are not recognized unless there are five or more competitors in the division, no?

If we have enough Standard shooters to have them in their own division, then it makes perfect sense to pull them out from competing with Production. But even so, the difference from Production to Standard is nowhere near the difference from Standard to Open, so I'm less concerned.


euxx said:
See Appendix A2 of the rule book:

...

The first sentence doesn't contradict with IPSC Ontario policy. It's just most matches don't specify specific divisions, hence all divisions are recognized.
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That's my read as well. So while it would be unconventional, I think we could offer two GT divisions basically separating the Open Handgun/Shotgun shooters from everyone else. Around here at least, I think people would rather shoot a match in a division that put them at a slight disadvantage rather than not shoot the match.
 
stormbringer said:
I think that EESA was one of if not the ONLY club in Ontario or Canada for that matter to run an IPSC 3 Gun Grand Tournament.
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Nice try, buddy... 2010 IPSC Nats at Halifax hosted grand tournament and Barrie club run a small tournament in 2013.
In any case all this bragging has nothing to do with the OP question.
 
euxx said:
Nice try, buddy... 2010 IPSC Nats at Halifax hosted grand tournament and Barrie club run a small tournament in 2013.
In any case all this bragging has nothing to do with the OP question.
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Nice try at getting you to understand the English language you mean. Which it appears I failed at.
 
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