heavenIsAlie
CGN Ultra frequent flyer
- Location
- Abbotsford
I shoot 9mm in classic, i do well, i still know i should be shooting major instead. The "what if i need to make up a shot" arguement/reasoning is a bad attitude to be in for a match IMO
IPSC classic 45 acp major loads
- Thread starter Motoc55
- Start date
If you need extra shots to finish a stage, then clearly you're NOT shooting all A's (or even a high percentage of A's), therefore you will be hitting a high percentage of C's and D's,ergo: you cannot afford the penalty of one extra point for every non-A and shooting major would be of benefit to you.
If you cannot even hit the target: then you should not be concerned with the tactical question "what is the optimal gun for this game" but rather "what do I need to do to improve my accuracy", and in this case: please just use whichever gun that increases your accuracy the most: and I can understand in that case, the lesser recoil of minor caliber may be exactly what is right for you.
-ivan-
Production shooters have no choice but to shoot minor so they've had to alter their approach to harvesting points. The best Production shooters view D hits as misses and their stage plans tend to reflect this. I think this is the same mind-set that will ultimately prevail in Classic until we see a fundamental change in over all stage design. Currently we have people campaigning in Classic who aren't yet sure if they want to be fish or fowl, so they're trying to shoot stages the same as they would in Standard. For interest; I note that some of the top Production shooters in IPSC are now shooting hit factors that give up nothing to Open and Standard, so the approach seems to be working.
We tend to see an awful lot of ten-round-centric stages in IPSC and as long as this persists it means that at least a few times in a major match, you're going to have to eat a standing reload if you're rocking Standard Major. Allowing for competition mode nerves, I'll be gracious and call that a two second hit on your time. If this occurs on a high hit factor stage it's going to be at least the same as shooting a miss and depending on the factor, maybe even more. On a low factor stage it isn't as bad, but you're still netting out with a lot of points dropped per those two seconds. So for a 5-factor stage for instance you'll be10 points down (same as hitting a no-shoot) and a 10-factor stage is 20 points down (same as a miss, 2 C's and a D).
As well, if you're going into a 9 round array with a major gun carrying 9 rounds you will be shooting through it a lot more cautiously than a minor gun carrying 11. More cautious = more time. If you have a pick-up-and-load stage with 9 rounds to score...and we see a lot of those these days...you're hooped before you start with one round shy if you're shooting major, meaning a standing reload for the extra round or just take the miss.
Whether you are shooting major or minor your goal should be to shoot 90 - 95% of available score. Of course we don't always succeed with that but the tipping point between accuracy and speed will always have to flux with the specific needs of the stage AND the division. But either way, if you stick to the 90 - 95% protocol then I think that ten rounds of minor is always going to net out as an advantage.
This is of course only my opinion. Currently, I don't think there is enough depth in the Division to prove either approach decisively. As more and more people make the switch, the numbers will reveal the truth.
We tend to see an awful lot of ten-round-centric stages in IPSC and as long as this persists it means that at least a few times in a major match, you're going to have to eat a standing reload if you're rocking Standard Major. Allowing for competition mode nerves, I'll be gracious and call that a two second hit on your time. If this occurs on a high hit factor stage it's going to be at least the same as shooting a miss and depending on the factor, maybe even more. On a low factor stage it isn't as bad, but you're still netting out with a lot of points dropped per those two seconds. So for a 5-factor stage for instance you'll be10 points down (same as hitting a no-shoot) and a 10-factor stage is 20 points down (same as a miss, 2 C's and a D).
As well, if you're going into a 9 round array with a major gun carrying 9 rounds you will be shooting through it a lot more cautiously than a minor gun carrying 11. More cautious = more time. If you have a pick-up-and-load stage with 9 rounds to score...and we see a lot of those these days...you're hooped before you start with one round shy if you're shooting major, meaning a standing reload for the extra round or just take the miss.
Whether you are shooting major or minor your goal should be to shoot 90 - 95% of available score. Of course we don't always succeed with that but the tipping point between accuracy and speed will always have to flux with the specific needs of the stage AND the division. But either way, if you stick to the 90 - 95% protocol then I think that ten rounds of minor is always going to net out as an advantage.
This is of course only my opinion. Currently, I don't think there is enough depth in the Division to prove either approach decisively. As more and more people make the switch, the numbers will reveal the truth.
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I think Rob's comments (which I agree with) bring us full circle in this conversation. Specifically:
which brings me back to my original statement in Post #23 "I'm simply not good enough to shoot minor, because I need the points".
I would recommend people trying to answer the major/minor question determine not "what percentage of A's would I LIKE to shoot", but "what percentage of A's am I ACTUALLY shooting". I'm not saying you should give up trying to be more accurate: I'm saying "choose the gun that will maximize your score for the next match". This is based on the match copy and the percentage of A's that I'm currently shooting.
I shot 92% of the points in the 2013 IPSC Nationals; 89% in the USPSA Single Stack Nationals; and for me at least this is still not high enough to make the switch to minor. If I can get consistently above 95% I will make the switch... but for this weekend, at the IPSC BC Provincials, it's Classic Major for me.
Ask me next week if this was a mistake
-ivan-
which brings me back to my original statement in Post #23 "I'm simply not good enough to shoot minor, because I need the points".
I would recommend people trying to answer the major/minor question determine not "what percentage of A's would I LIKE to shoot", but "what percentage of A's am I ACTUALLY shooting". I'm not saying you should give up trying to be more accurate: I'm saying "choose the gun that will maximize your score for the next match". This is based on the match copy and the percentage of A's that I'm currently shooting.
I shot 92% of the points in the 2013 IPSC Nationals; 89% in the USPSA Single Stack Nationals; and for me at least this is still not high enough to make the switch to minor. If I can get consistently above 95% I will make the switch... but for this weekend, at the IPSC BC Provincials, it's Classic Major for me.
Ask me next week if this was a mistake
-ivan-
- Location
- Victoria, BC
I do not reload and am just getting started in IPSC. What factory .45 loads/bullet type should I shoot for IPSC Production? (Going to use an HK45). Should I practice with the same loads?
1riot1ranger
CGN Regular
- Location
- Calgary, AB
Every time I watch Ivan shoot I'm "blown away" by his skill and focus... And it doesn't matter whether he's shooting major or minor. (That having been said, my best performance relative to his was when he was shooting minor and I wasn't)
There are always stages in every match that advantage Classic minor over Classic major. I've not been to many matches this year (my first full year of Classic major) where there wasn't at least one standing reload. That having been said, I'd still take major over minor unless the entire match was set up to be "minor friendly".
I started out shooting Classic Division in minor thinking that I would have an advantage (shoot faster, fewer reloads, more "backup" rounds in my gun, etc.) - but after 5 matches I realized that I don't shoot accurately enough to capitalize on the "advantage". I now shoot major.
I'll probably keep my 9mm for a backup and Steel Challenge and maybe the odd IDPA match, but for IPSC Classic my first choice will always be major.
There are always stages in every match that advantage Classic minor over Classic major. I've not been to many matches this year (my first full year of Classic major) where there wasn't at least one standing reload. That having been said, I'd still take major over minor unless the entire match was set up to be "minor friendly".
I started out shooting Classic Division in minor thinking that I would have an advantage (shoot faster, fewer reloads, more "backup" rounds in my gun, etc.) - but after 5 matches I realized that I don't shoot accurately enough to capitalize on the "advantage". I now shoot major.
I'll probably keep my 9mm for a backup and Steel Challenge and maybe the odd IDPA match, but for IPSC Classic my first choice will always be major.
Give yourself a favor - buy 9mm gun. You will be able to shoot two times more than with .45.
I will give you answers to questions you didn't know you asked:
Q) I do not reload
A) Your first investment should be a Dillon reloading machine: it's going to either save you money, or more likely simply mean you get to shoot a bunch more ammo. IPSC is a great way to burn through ammo.
Q) I shoot IPSC Production
A) Then a 45 is not a great choice because a) it's expensive to feed, b) it can be difficult to get it to be reliable with a "nice" light minor load c) 45 is simply excessive in a division that only recognizes minor
Q) I'm using an HK45
A) I'm not overly familiar with this exact gun, but I suspect it may be expensive to get the accessories you seek: mags, mag pouches, holster, spare parts, etc. There are many other more economical choices.
Q) Practise ammo vs match ammo
A) Use the same if possible, but if not possible then save money on the cheapest ammo/components you can find for practise.
-ivan-
- Location
- Victoria, BC
Great answers! Maybe I will just use the G17 I already own for IPSC! The HK45 will be "for kicks" and just general around the range bad-ass-ness I will now respectfully bow out of this interesting thread I have caused to drift.
I will now respectfully bow out of this interesting thread I have caused to drift.
heavenIsAlie
CGN Ultra frequent flyer
- Location
- Abbotsford
buy norinco ammo and declare yourself standard major not production
