Ipsc Classification System - ONTARIO

pmt said:
If this is a brand new classification system, then EVERYONE should be classed as "U" - even Mike B. He will still have his USPSA classification - which has nothing to do with ours.

What I don't understand is, who is going to set the high hit factors that we all will be compared to?
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I believe it will be Mike A for Open and Mike B for Standard. Not sure about the others.

Using the classifications from the USPSA is just a starting point. We need some frame of reference, and it makes sense to use the classifications of the best shooter in the province. No point in using one of us regulars, it would make half the shooters GM's.
 
Actually there will be a fair number of shooters involved in order to get a fair base line, probably at least 3 shooters per division
 
To be honest your club reps have all the info as it was presented at the club rep meeting, get in touch with your club rep and he can fill you in
 
PH Racing said:
To be honest your club reps have all the info as it was presented at the club rep meeting, get in touch with your club rep and he can fill you in
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Pat,

what about posting this on Ontario IPSC forum. Any member who got password can read it. Sometimes contacting club rep is not an option.

Cheers
 
PH Racing said:
Under the new system the only one who may be classed as GM would be Mike B as he is an actual GM In the US.
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Then what's the purpose of having an ONTARIO based classification system???

This issue was brought up during previous discussions and every time it was decided that Ontario shooters want to be compared to Ontario shooters. It may not be an accurate representation of a National, or World standard, but that is what they want. (yes you could argue that an Ontario GM is really a B class shooter, but then if you want ACCURATE rankings, then you would not even be considering an ontario only one)

funny how this got "forgotten" when it was revamped recently. Seems like most of the recommendation that last committee made have just been tossed out. Seems like the new BOD didn't like the old recommendation so they decided to reform their own group to decide what the classification system would be..
 
ckc123 said:
Then what's the purpose of having an ONTARIO based classification system???

This issue was brought up during previous discussions and every time it was decided that Ontario shooters want to be compared to Ontario shooters. It may not be an accurate representation of a National, or World standard, but that is what they want. (yes you could argue that an Ontario GM is really a B class shooter, but then if you want ACCURATE rankings, then you would not even be considering an ontario only one)

funny how this got "forgotten" when it was revamped recently. Seems like most of the recommendation that last committee made have just been tossed out. Seems like the new BOD didn't like the old recommendation so they decided to reform their own group to decide what the classification system would be..
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Because he is a Ontario shooter also. It gives us a fair starting point. If we used shooters of lesser talents then everyone would be a GM and how could you get a fair representation of your skills in Ontario against other Ontario shooters? Compare your self to the best then you will be able to say how you stack up against him and all the other shooters.
 
SVISTI1911 said:
Because he is a Ontario shooter also. It gives us a fair starting point. If we used shooters of lesser talents then everyone would be a GM and how could you get a fair representation of your skills in Ontario against other Ontario shooters? Compare your self to the best then you will be able to say how you stack up against him and all the other shooters.
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it's not just "HIM" that is using this system..their are other divisions than standard..

my comment was based on the fact that is IS flawed.. BUT that's what everyone wanted.. it's always been that way.. The comment I was quoting was saying that the opposite, and saying the Burell was the only GM cause he was a GM in the US.. using that logic we would not have any GM's in revolver. (and maybe not even in production and open.. )
 
ckc123 said:
... using that logic we would not have any GM's in revolver. (and maybe not even in production and open.. )
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It seem like you forgetting that GM rank is not a matter of one classification system or another. It is a matter of skill, and making it hard to became GM would likely create a bigger intention for Ontario shooters to improve. It seem like we all need such intention much more then flaming in various forums. If there won't be any GMs, then we all deserve that.
 
euxx said:
It seem like you forgetting that GM rank is not a matter of one classification system or another. It is a matter of skill, and making it hard to became GM would likely create a bigger intention for Ontario shooters to improve. It seem like we all need such intention much more then flaming in various forums. If there won't be any GMs, then we all deserve that.
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and why would you say I'm forgetting that.. being a "GM" in a closed system is all about who is the top shooter in the closed group.. the top person becomes the GM and everyone is compared to that person. "if there won't be any....." you obviously don't understand how classification systems, and IPSC scoring systems work.. regardless of any level of "skill" the top shooter in a closed system becomes the GM.. If you are using an "external standard" to determine your GM, then it's not a closed system, and hence it's not provincial. it's regional, or international now (depending on where you get your data to compare those shooters too).

at the rate we are going.. we might as well say that anyone who can shoot el-prez in under 10 seconds is a GM...
 
You can still be a top shooter in your region, even if you are not a GM, so your arguments are rather pointless, so as arguing with you.
 
and that's called a national/world classification system.. that's not a PROVINCIAL one..

Then you get all the "Waaaaaaa I've been shooting for 4 years and I'm still a "D" shooter" and people tend to drop out , cause in reality they are not a good a shooter and what they think they are.. or they are not progressing to be the GM they think they are.. (Personally I have no problems with that type of a system.. it's more accurate.)
 
ckc123 said:
it's not just "HIM" that is using this system..their are other divisions than standard..

my comment was based on the fact that is IS flawed.. BUT that's what everyone wanted.. it's always been that way.. The comment I was quoting was saying that the opposite, and saying the Burell was the only GM cause he was a GM in the US.. using that logic we would not have any GM's in revolver. (and maybe not even in production and open.. )
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Who said that other divisions would be ignored? As PH has said if you care to read the thread, 3-4 shooters will be used in each division to get a high hit factor which will be used for the classification stages. Mike B just happens to be the only Ontario shooter that is a GM in the USPSA, therefore a logical choice.

We have many talented shooters in Ontario in all the divisions. The only division I think that would be really lacking would be revolver, quite honestly because there is a real lack of interest in it. Without using names in this public forum I can come up with close to 10 that would be good choices for each of the other divisions. In all honesty these 10 would do well in the 3 other divisions because they are talented shooters, regardless of which gun is in their hand. It is their skill set, not their equipment. Probably in Revolver too.

We do have a few shooters in Ontario that are Ms in the USPSA in Open. If we use them to establish a high hit factor for Open it would be the same as using Mike B for standard. The fact that Mike B is a GM in the USPSA is actually quite irrelevant, all that matters is that he is quite easily the best Standard shooter in Ontario. All this system is doing is taking our top shooters to establish a benchmark. As we/it progresses things may and will change as new shooters may achieve a new high hit factor. More classification stages will be created or borrowed from the USPSA ones. This is just a starting point and the system will grow from here and most likely be tweaked as needed to serve our needs or purpose.

No matter what type of system we use there will be flaws in it. I have been in this sport for well over 15 years and have seen classification systems come and go. I think this is the 5th one! None have been perfect & none will be. The only thing that has remained the same is that the top shooters are still the top shooters. So what if under a new system we have 15 more B shooters and 30 less C shooters (or however the breaks happen)? You will still be in the same "group" of shooters as you were before unless you practice and improve your skill set! No classification system will make a D shooter a GM! Dedication, practice and hard work will. If you don't like your class stop #####in about it, go out and shoot, practice, dry fire, ask the top guys for help, and shoot some more. Did I say dry fire?! Practice?!:runaway:
 
What you said was ......

SVISTI1911 said:
Who said that other divisions would be ignored? As PH has said if you care to read the thread, 3-4 shooters will be
...
...
shooter a GM! Dedication, practice and hard work will. If you don't like your class stop #####in about it, go out and shoot, practice, dry fire, ask the top guys for help, and shoot some more. Did I say dry fire?! Practice?!:runaway:
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what I heard was

Blah, blah Blah..
The fact that Mike B is a GM in the USPSA is actually quite irrelevant, all that matters is that he is quite easily the best Standard shooter in Ontario.
Blah Blah Blah
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if you actually read the quote that I was objecting to...

PH Racing said:
Under the new system the only one who may be classed as GM would be Mike B as he is an actual GM In the US.
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You can see that we are agreeing.. Using the "Mike is a GM in the US" is not an Ontario based system, it's a USPSA one, with just a different calculation. Since Mike is a GM in the US it does make us more in line with what the US shooters would be, but that only applies to Standard (and if Mike performs to the same level).. the rest of the divisions will not be the same. using that same statement, if you make our top open shooter a Master (cause that's what he is in USPSA) that that's a USPSA based system with a different calculations.. it's not an ONTARIO based system.

Regardless of how you want to do the calculations (as you said they are all flawed, we both agree there) the top shooter in Ontario is the GM. If not, the it's not an Ontario based system. It's Ontario using someone else's shooters to classifier theirs, it's a very different thing.
 
IMO, classification system should reflect whole Canada and yes whole country with GM, M, As and so on. Canada is one of the largest regions and maybe some of our GM would not match with USPSA, however it will represent over 2000 shooters in the whole region.

Greetings
 
ckc123 said:
You can see that we are agreeing.. Using the "Mike is a GM in the US" is not an Ontario based system, it's a USPSA one, with just a different calculation.
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Give it a break already. All Pat meant is that Mike B is going to be a GM in Ontario because he is a damn good shooter. The system will rank other competitors against the best shooters we have and the fact that Mike is USPSA GM will just make it hard to get GM rank in Ontario for everybody else. But the good part is that you won't have big disappointment and surprises when going to US and International matches.
 
ckc123 said:
I think I can read what Pat is writing, and respond back to accordingly..
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Well, perhaps you should try harder to show that you can read. Repeating "it is USPSA classification" is not really helping anyone, and calling people names isn't going to make your point of view sound any better.
 
ckc123 said:
What you said was ......



what I heard was



if you actually read the quote that I was objecting to...



You can see that we are agreeing.. Using the "Mike is a GM in the US" is not an Ontario based system, it's a USPSA one, with just a different calculation. Since Mike is a GM in the US it does make us more in line with what the US shooters would be, but that only applies to Standard (and if Mike performs to the same level).. the rest of the divisions will not be the same. using that same statement, if you make our top open shooter a Master (cause that's what he is in USPSA) that that's a USPSA based system with a different calculations.. it's not an ONTARIO based system.

Regardless of how you want to do the calculations (as you said they are all flawed, we both agree there) the top shooter in Ontario is the GM. If not, the it's not an Ontario based system. It's Ontario using someone else's shooters to classifier theirs, it's a very different thing.
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Funny I think blah, blah, blah is what most of us hear when you post too, I guess we all have that in common now......:jerkit:
 
If we just want an inflated ontario only system then lets go back to the old one where everyone and there brother could be an M if they show up to the right matches.
The truth is the guys at the top don't care what class they are, they want to win the match.
Sadly since Ontario matchs don't give out plaques or trophies for class wins, there really isn't any point in having a class system
I'm all for having a proper class system in place, I'd just like to see it get used.
 
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