IPSC International Production category 9mm: Glock or CZ SP-01 Shadow?

[40cal]

I think we're splitting hairs...but Sevigny has also won the World Championships (omong his many other titles)

8-Time USPSA National Champion
7-Time IDPA National Champion
6-Time IDPA Winter/Indoor National Champion
2-Time TSA National Champion
2-Time Steel Challenge World IDPA Champion
2-Time Winchester World Challenge Champion
2-Time Steel Challenge National Rimfire Champion
Light & Laser Invitational Champion
Steel Challenge World Rimfire Champion
Steel Challenge National Steel Master Champion
Steel Challenge National Limited Champion
Bianchi Cup National Production Champion
IPSC World & Pan American Production Champion


Regardless...these guys (Sevigny, Jarrett, Graffel etc) are not human...so I doubt they would get much better (or worse) by changing equipment.

I love this thread!!!

I also love the guys that bash Glocks.

Want facts? Or do you want preferences?

Just as Quigley has pointed out up top......the Glocks can compete with the best. Kind of funny isn't it? Tupperware?

Sevigney has beat SV, STI, Tanfoglio, you name it.....with a Glock.....on even terms (actually with a round count disadvantage!) at US Nationals. This, against all the BEST with their favourite firearms, or at least the ones they are paid to shoot. Sevigney is no more of a God than the next best 20 shooters. This includes our own M Burrell from Ontario. They are ALL capable of winning a (US) National match at that level. That said, they are all within probably 5% skill level to each other. Now, onto the guns.

Truth....Glocks are harder to shoot accurately shot to shot under low split times.

Truth....Most people can't shoot Glocks worth a crap!!

Truth....I have shot the other firearms mentioned, and I believe I would be faster/ more accurate with many of them. There are MANY great firearms.

Truth....NONE of them are as reliable, and simple as a Glock.

Truth.....None of them have magazines that are remotely as reliable as a Glock factory magazine.

Truth....Many people will argue some of my points, but they will be wrong. You can't please everyone, but I think I have seen enough good shooters and matches to back up my statements.

A Glock is a fine firearm. It is by no means the best firearm, prettiest, most accurate, or fastest. If I had to trust my life to one firearm, there is no question in my mind that I would choose a Glock.

Glock bashing is common for those without the skill levels needed to shoot them competitively. Doesn't make sense when you look at the facts though, does it? Facts are.....just that, facts.

Bottom line is: Shoot what you like, and are comfortable with. You will find after shooting hundred of matches, that you can shoot some guns more comfortably than others. If they are reliable, then use them. Just don't pee on someone else's parade for choosing differently.

 

[z1bam]

Truth... my cz75-sp01 had no malfunctions on our monday night match while a glock had two malfuntions

But really what he said above, choose which is most comfortable and floats your boat. Every pistol will have malfunctions but all can me made reliable, some with less effort than others.

 

[tobin]

Both are great guns in their own way.

However, we are talking about the Glock 17, not the Glock 34 that Sevigny and lots of other USPSA members shoot in Production. Of course, Sevigny can win with a 17, but the average shooter would be probably be better served by the heavier gun like the CZ.

Having said that, my CZ 85 Combat may be the best of both worlds, not too heavy and not too light. I am hoping to make my Shadow as 100% reliable as the 85 or as my Glock 17 or 34.

 

[Walter Hornby]

Strange, Cathy has a shadow and she has had zero problems with it. it shot well with no issues at all with BDX 147's.

 

[Canuck44]

I'd disagree as a whole with Canuck44 on this one, and regardless, the accuracy required in IPSC is well within the realm of virtually every pistol out there...shooters and time taken to clean plate racks vary, but ultimately the bullet goes were the sights are pointed.

That is why women come in differnet shapes ans sizes. One size doesn't fit all.

I will challenge you though. Take a stock Glock 17, 15 yards from a rest and shoot your best five shot string and post it. I will do the same with a Shadow. We are both gentleman. My Shadow is stock. Just a modern day mail order duel.

I think it is more fair to say the bullet goes where the barrel is pointed. The sights....sometimes the two are aligned sometimes maybe not.

Take Care

Bob

 

[retepnosflow]

I picked G17 because this is what I have right now, Eventually I want a shadow or a GP6.

 

[PeterPan]

Both pistols are very popular among PD shooters in Canada and Europe.

Glock 17 was never intended to be a IPSC gun, therefore it is a rugged design which works. Very little cleaning, especially magazines.

CZ Shadow it was design by IPSC shooters for IPSC. It is a great gun. Only few modifications are needed like grips and lower double action trigger down to 6lb and you have a great pistol for IPSC.

My two cents

 

[relliott]

All guns are mechanical devices and all mechanical devices can and will fail at some point. It usually depends on the amount of abuse they have to take, and IPSC is abusive to all guns. Also, sometimes you can just be unlucky and get one that is one of those Friday-afternoon-lemons. It can happen, but for the most part CZ's are great guns and Glocks are great guns. Most of the problems you will see with either one relate to ammo or magazines (we drop them a lot).

Having said that; I don't dig Glocks too much for competition because for me they tend to point high, and they have the same handling characteristics as a hair dryer. But they are simple, rugged and they work, and if you are used to the format they can win.

So there.

 

[philthygeezer]

Both pistols are very popular among PD shooters in Canada and Europe.

Glock 17 was never intended to be a IPSC gun, therefore it is a rugged design which works. Very little cleaning, especially magazines.

CZ Shadow it was design by IPSC shooters for IPSC. It is a great gun. Only few modifications are needed like grips and lower double action trigger down to 6lb and you have a great pistol for IPSC.

My two cents

Can I swap the grips on the SP-01 for the factory anodized version? I have small hands and need a thinner handle.

Can I put factory blue or red anodized ones on, or are coloured grips illegal for production ie. do they have to be black?

 

[tobin]

Can I swap the grips on the SP-01 for the factory anodized version? I have small hands and need a thinner handle.

Can I put factory blue or red anodized ones on, or are coloured grips illegal for production ie. do they have to be black?

Angus Hobdell has black thin ones now also. I think you can change them because they resemble the factory grips and they are made by CZ.

 

[Quigley]

Can I swap the grips on the SP-01 for the factory anodized version? I have small hands and need a thinner handle.

Can I put factory blue or red anodized ones on, or are coloured grips illegal for production ie. do they have to be black?

you can use the grips (in what ever colour they are offered)

 

[BCRider]

For production class they do have to be OEM factory options though. Keep that in mind. Aftermarket is verboten.

 

[40cal]

Both are great guns in their own way.

However, we are talking about the Glock 17, not the Glock 34 that Sevigny and lots of other USPSA members shoot in Production. Of course, Sevigny can win with a 17, but the average shooter would be probably be better served by the heavier gun like the CZ.

Having said that, my CZ 85 Combat may be the best of both worlds, not too heavy and not too light. I am hoping to make my Shadow as 100% reliable as the 85 or as my Glock 17 or 34.

Sevigney shot the 35 (40 cal) in Standard to win the US National Limited Championship against the names I mentioned earlier (that was the toughest trophy to take home). Yes, the 34 is popular in the US for Production. Wonder why? Besides, there is little difference between the 17/34 and 22/35 models except the sight radius. About an ounce give or take on the slide/barrel weight which is exactly where you don't want it. The Glock is already too top heavy in that respect. It is a give/take thing, but usually most people prefer the longer sight radius.

Frankly, I can't get my 35 to cycle as sweetly as my 22 models. I want to use the extra sight radius, but can't seem to get as comfortable with the extra weight up top on a light gun as it moves during firing. I have talked with other notable shooters about this and heard similar stories.

Just seems that Canadian shooters shy away from Glocks now. They want the "bling" factor more!! Can't blame some for that. To each his own. There is probably one model out there that could sway me, but it is still not reliable enough yet. I won't mention it because I don't want to slag any particular model, and I know people that sell them as a business.

As for making the CZ as reliable as a Glock......good luck!! You could be a rich man if you could accomplish that one! It is a good gun though.

I have been offered some deals to shoot some of the above mentioned firearms in this thread. Almost made the plunge too. I waited to see how many of them fare in competition as a few shoot very well out of the box. I am not sold yet. If you lose a match because of gun reliability issues that you know about, then who is to blame? If it means that you drop a couple more spots, and you shoot in the middle of the pack, that isn't such a big deal. You weigh the risks.

Seen too many broken parts (geez, it is funny how people don't want to talk about their guns breaking.....you usually find out through the grape-vine after the match!!!) on a regular basis with some of the popular models. I am completely up-front with any repairs that have to be made with any of my guns (there are more than just Glocks, believe me). Seen Glocks break as well......even blow up in front of me (double charge..... not pretty).

I can only verify my guns because I service/repair/load for them. My one G22 that was originally bought used for my wife to take her BB course has a good history. Don't know how many rounds were through it before me, but I have put over 70,000 rounds through it with only ONE spring failure that was unexpected. Of course this was at a Nationals on a 32 round field course. I now change the spring every 6,000-10,000 rounds just as a precaution. Same barrel, same pins, same connector, everything as original except the sights (hate Glock sights!) and mag release (extended). I don't know of any other semi-auto center fire pistol that can accomplish that type of reliability. Again, Glocks aren't the best for shooting, they are the most reliable.

 

[7.62mm]

40cal:

Mind if I pick your brain a bit?

Sounds like you have an awful lot of experience with the Glocks! What spring did you replace? I have inbetween 10, 000 and 15,000 through my G17. 2 weeks ago, the slide lock was causing me trouble. It would lock the slide back on the second, or fifth, or seventh round, completely random. I tore it apart later when I got home, compared the "U" shaped spring to a new one (I have been stocking up on Glock Parts and Bits), and the spring was way more compressed, not "U" shaped, but more closed. I unbent it, took it to the range, and it was fine. Ie. no more stoppages.

Just wondering, by your previous post, what spring it was you replaced, and if my slide stop spring is in need of swapping.

Thanks.

 

[cablemonkey]

M&P is a great cheap gun.

 

[stormbringer]

M&P is a great cheap gun.

Great if you ditch the mag safety!

I had 4 on my last BB course. Enough to drive you to drink!

 

[Madness]

Stock G17 is a great production gun, and you can take the money you save and buy ammo to learn how to shoot it properly

 

[40cal]

40cal:

Mind if I pick your brain a bit?

Sounds like you have an awful lot of experience with the Glocks! What spring did you replace? I have inbetween 10, 000 and 15,000 through my G17. 2 weeks ago, the slide lock was causing me trouble. It would lock the slide back on the second, or fifth, or seventh round, completely random. I tore it apart later when I got home, compared the "U" shaped spring to a new one (I have been stocking up on Glock Parts and Bits), and the spring was way more compressed, not "U" shaped, but more closed. I unbent it, took it to the range, and it was fine. Ie. no more stoppages.

Just wondering, by your previous post, what spring it was you replaced, and if my slide stop spring is in need of swapping.

Thanks.

The only spring you have to worry about is the trigger return spring that connects to the trigger bar.....the one you have to stretch when you connect the trigger bar and the disconnect. Sevigney replaces his every 6,000 rounds from what I hear (of course I hear this AFTER I have problems with mine!!).

Your slide lock spring may be fine now. Sounds like someone assembled things in the wrong order and bent it (common problem). If you have a 3 pin G17, then put the small pin in the locking block first, and then put slide lock in place, and then the larger pin (the pivot pin for the slide lock) in second. Some people have tried it the other way around and bent the small U-shaped spring as they try to put the small pin in second. I tried to find just the spring part, but Glock is reluctant to sell it. No profit!!

If you have any problems, just ask.....I may know. No guarantees! You can also pick my brain next time we meet at the pistol part of the 3-gun at EESA if you want. I will probably be shooting a Glock there in Production Division. You will notice me as the guy with his tail between his legs because I will have just returned from the USPSA Nationals in Las Vegas and had my ass handed to me by Sevigney!! He has a tendency to do that. Damn kids.

 

[40cal]

Great if you ditch the mag safety!

I had 4 on my last BB course. Enough to drive you to drink!

LMFAO!!! You are SO right on that one.

The M&P's are pretty decent though.

There are actually many more good Production guns than just a few years ago when the Division was first introduced. And some people think that IPSC has no influence on manufacturers!!! Think again.

 

[beltfed]

I will challenge you though. Take a stock Glock 17, 15 yards from a rest and shoot your best five shot string and post it. I will do the same with a Shadow. We are both gentleman. My Shadow is stock. Just a modern day mail order duel.
Bob

You're on!