IPSC Rules?

whew..... another can of worms, eh??

Some random comments:

a) being an official is a min requirement, that's all. It IS true that some ROs, especially those two just help out at local club/level 1 matches aren't as up to speed on the rules as some of the good shooters, but so what? Those ROs aren't BB instructors. The issue here is that those ROs aren't up to speed, not that some shooters know a lot of the rules.

b) being a current official doesn't guarantee you becoming an instructor, there are lots of other checks and balances in play, some objective, some subjective.

a couple of things I want to reply to, not really dealing with this topic directly, but responding to what was said:

Ipsik said:
Top shooters generally know the rule book much much better than any RO with only 1 year experience or more for that matter.
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There was this one really good Open shooting at this year's Triangle who thought that walking up to the line with a holstered gun which had a slide locked open wasn't against any rules... Hmmm... Pretty much all of the officials on the line knew that wasn't kosher, but were too tired and busy to worry with issuing match warning... I guess there is an advantage to having a reputation, unless it's a DQ, ROs just don't want to bother getting into prolonged arguments, even when they know they are right. This MIGHT lead the shooter to think he knows the rules better, but that isn't really the case...


Ipsik said:
(1)Top shooters seldom maintain RO status as they prefer to shoot the match to do as well as possible, (2)RO ing the same match usually guarantees you will sewer the match.
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re (1) - based on what I've seen, there are maybe a few really good shooters who choose not to help out in their sport, prefering to coast on their performance and use that as an excuse. Even some who are too busy/etc to get actual RO status still help out in big ways - the number of top shooters who do virtually NOTHING is very small... But not zero. Personally, I wouldn't want to have those people teach new members, we have enough attitude and personality issues here already.

re (2) I'm going to bite my tongue here..
 
omen said:
There was this one really good Open shooting at this year's Triangle who thought that walking up to the line with a holstered gun which had a slide locked open wasn't against any rules...
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Well being new to the sport, I guess the reason it was "against the rules" is slide open? Hammer should be down I think?
 
Re slide locked back

Which rule was broken.

As far as I can determine 5.2.2 refers to pistols with the slide closed.

The concept is to be sure the gun is not loaded or at least not ready to fire, so if the slide is forward the hammer would have to be down so even if there was a round in the chamber the gun could not fire, of course the mag well has to be empty.

a gun with an open slide and an empty mag well would be the most safe possible.
 
Ipsik said:
Top shooters know what is safe and what is not and just as importantly they know to teach the correct techniques to the new shooters on the BB course.



Mike
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At the risk of stating the obvious...being a top shooter does not necessarily mean that same individual has any teaching skills what so ever...so perhaps it should read "some top shooters"...

Shooting and teaching require vastly different skills...

The BB Instructor program is working just fine. Although I would always agree that there is room for improvement...it's not broken...so there's no need to fix it.

There are better battles to fight...and things that actually need fixing...this just isn't one of them...
 
a better thing might be for top shooters who are interested to help out new shooters who need tips on both shooting and the rules. This would probably help keep more new people in the sport.
 
Mobile 1 , I think you are missing part of the point of it .
I am a fairly new shooter ( 3 years ) , but this is my 2 cents .
IPSC is an extreme sport with full power handguns in motion .
Me and my family members will be at these matches . As a competitor I don't need the added burden of concern as to the ability of new shooters or their instructors . You maybe the best on the block for the job but based on what ?
It take a great deal of dedication to be a BB instuctor and you want someone who doesn't have the dedication to be a RO to be a BB instuctor ?
Think about it .
 
helping new shooters

Of the few top shooters I know most would probably be more than willing to participate in some training classes if it was set up by clubs at that clubs range. Some maybe not.

That is the club sets it up, date, time, populates the class, provides the targets, patches etc and the Instructor simply has to instruct.

Most of the work to set up a class or course is to organize the date, range rental, supplies and targets etc,get shooters to apply and of course if I am going to do all that myself I will want to get reimbursed.

If a club local to me, wants to set it up I'll instruct a 1 -2 hr class for free.

I would suggest 1 session things such as, how to shoot a mover, how to draw and reload, How to move in and out of a shooting position, how to shoot on the move, as a few example lessons

Mike
 
One of the most obvious reasons to be RO before becoming a BB instructor is be able to control the shooting line. If you are not an RO how can you control your shooters on the line? To me it is kind of an obvious prerequisite. I am paraphrasing here but the rule book says that an IPSC Shooter cannot handle a firearm except under the direct supervision of an RO or in the safety area (with no ammo present.) Therefore if you had a BB instructor who was not an RO he would be teaching the students that no you don’t really need an RO to handle a firearm at an IPSC event.

The other good reason to be an RO is so that you can put on a mini match after the BB course. I do this with my students an they all say it makes attending a real match easier. I try to invite local shooters to come out for the mini match to make it as real as possible.
 
If people are so eager to bring new shooters into the sport without being willing to become an ipsc instructor, as defined, do what I do: train new people yourself to the point where they can pretty much pass the course already, then have them show up to a course, and be a nice surprise for the instructor.

and re 5.2.2 - the words 'slide' and 'closed' do not appear anywhere in there - but you're right, IPSC rules are very much open to having words and sentences added and/or removed to/from them, to make them fit with a shooter's particular situation, in the least punitive way ;) Sort of, if, for example, you were running around with your finger on the trigger, but the gun was actually empty at the time, you could claim that since the rule was there to prevent ADs, you shouldn't get DQed, since it wasn't possible for you to AD? That the "only when the gun is loaded" is implied in the rule?

Being an official forces you to deal with the rules how they really are, whereas if you're just a shooter, you're free to (mis)interpret them in any way you want. Yet another reason to have instructors be officials...
 
MOBILE 1 said:
So what you are saying is IF Rob Letham moved to Canada He could not be a b/b instructor because he is not a R/O.
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it's called setting a standard for EVERYONE to be able to meet so that you know there is an experience level and skill set for an instructor. having "special rules" for "special people" turns it into a big argument, cause now you have people saying "well he got exempted, why not me.." that seems like a more likely scenario to kill a sport, then setting a standard for everyone to meet..
 
What's the problem Joe.Could it be that Sarge finally took his bat,ball and glove and went home leaving you guys in the lurch?I recall telling you guys 3 years ago that this would happen but as usual nobody listened,including the league president at the time.Especially the comment that we don't want to piss him off because he would stop teaching the course and the league would have no new shooters.By the way;shooting matches all over the country does not necessarily make everybody a qualified teacher.Just my 2 cents. Regards John
 
:rolleyes: I love it when people who don't shoot IPSC feel the need to comment on it.:p Actually the comment was to not piss him off untill we didn't need him anymore, which we don't, so your "told ya so" point is quite ignorant to the situation. There are still spots left for next weekends level 2, if you're intersted get a hold of Phil.

Being a current RO does have some bennifits to the shooters and to the instructors, but just because someone has an RO/CRO card doesn't mean they no what the rules are, the majority do but there are exceptions. I've heard a CRO scream that "he didn't care what the rule book said because he knew what a perticular rule said", after another RO pointed out an incorrect call.
I aggree with Black on their being an option to challenge the test, but I think the whole 80hrs of watching the firing line is a little over the top. How about a 2 day "Train the trainer" type course, then you do your first class supervised by a Master Instructor, with the same 5 students must pass criteria as well as some other Instuctor centered criteria. The more people we have that can safely qualify new shooters the easier it will be to grow our numbers. With enough qualified instructors out their a 1 or 2 person class would not be a strain on the instuctor pool. As an added benifit to the student they could end up saving some money. A 8 person class would involve shutting down an indorr range for the class, so the students might have to pay a range rental fee as part of the BB course cost. One instructor and 1 or 2 students probably wouldn't require the rental of the range in some situations. They could just be signed in as a guest.
Inregards to the slide locked back while holstered comment, when you pull the slide back on a 1911 it cocks the hammer, with it locked back you're not able to decock it, which 5.2.2 requires. There isn't anything unsafe about it, I started a few USPSA stages with my gun in that condition, and its a good way to cool down the barrel after a huge hoser stage.
 
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Madness said:
Inregards to the slide locked back while holstered comment, when you pull the slide back on a 1911 it cocks the hammer, with it locked back you're not able to decock it, which 5.2.2 requires..
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If you check the july handgun interreptations it specifically mentioned., and is not allowed.
 
ckc123 said:
If you check the july handgun interreptations it specifically mentioned., and is not allowed.
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Really? Where?

http://www.ipsc.org/pdf/RulesHandgunInterp200607.pdf

The Interpretations refer to Section 8.1 "handgun Ready position...this is during the course of fire only. We're not talking about "during the couse of fire" here. Mike had it locked back when he walked up to Load and make ready.

There is no Interpretation on rule 5.2.2 so at best it's still up for interpretation

I personally don't have an issue with it...but I will put a question in to NROI Canada to get an official response

Cheers
 
Quigley said:
The Interpretations refer to Section 8.1 "handgun Ready position...this is during the course of fire only.
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you are correct.. so in theory.. 5.2.2 is prior to the course of fire, and require hammer decocked, and 8.1.3 applies to an unloaded "hand gun ready" condition, where there was a grey area on if the slide had to be forward or not..

so both conditions are covered (I believe).
 
the most you can do (if I recall my recent course correctly) is issue a warning for a slide locked back prior to the LAMR command.
 
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