IPSC Stage Design

arancio

arancio

CGN Regular
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Amherstview, ON
Should the design criteria for IPSC stages be to make them interesting and challenging for the 3 or 4 percent of shooters who are A, M or GM ?? Or, should they be designed to make them fun, interesting and challenging for the other 96 or 97 percent who, by and large, pay the freight??

Let the games begin.
 
Well if your match was only ONE stage then your question would have merit. However there are always lots of stages to go around so I choose all of the above. I always try to have a mix of stage types. One hoser type stage some mind benders, long shots, open ended problem solving types that way everyone (hopefully) comes away having shot a good match and looking to return.
 
IMHO the best stages are the ones when everyone can shoot it their way. Of course you want to make it challenging for all; to your point of keeping the top 4-5 % of the shooters working at it...
Make the shooter change gears (several close targets and a long shot clumped together)
Allow engagement from different locations so the "snipers" don't have to run as much as the spray & pray types.
Work in a standing reload just to p*ss off the athletes or better still, only a couple of feet between between shooting boxes so the reloads have to be smooth.
Mix steel & paper.
Don't run the RO's into the ground; several shooting positions where the shooter has to move around barricades etc. but the RO's don't have to go cross country.
 
Usually when stage designers attempt to make things challenging for GMs they make it way too hard for the average guy. That being said there does need to be some reasonable accuracy requirements, blasting at 4 full targets at 5 to 7m in every port is incredibly boring. Use some hard cover, no shoots and varying distances.
 
Most people who design a stage thinking, "Oh! I'm going to mess up those GM's!" usually don't realize that the GM's are the ones that really don't care how tough a stage is. Once you've been in the sport long enough, you realize that all you can do is "shoot what's there" and if it's tough, so be it, it's just another challenge.

The only thing that GM's really have any opinion on is what Pat said...GM's hate banks of 4 targets at 5 meters that anybody can point once and pull twice. No challenge = no fun and everybody shoots the same score. Face it, there's a limit to how fast anyone can go at 5 yards, and B and C class shooters can pull the trigger just as fast as an M or GM.

I'm generalizing a bit, but I don't think most GM's would disagree with me.
 
Well i am a B/C class shooter and having a row of three targets two feet from my gun isn't much of a challenge either and on the opposite side of the fence hanging from a rope with one foot while balancing on a stool shooting around a barricade doesn't test much in the way of shooting skills either. Somewhere in between there has got to be a balance.

All that said it is what it is and the guys and took the time to design the stages and put them up have worked hard on my behalf so I go and have fun. I help where I can and leave it at that.

Take Care

Bob
 
hungrybeagle said:
Most people who design a stage thinking, "Oh! I'm going to mess up those GM's!" usually don't realize that the GM's are the ones that really don't care how tough a stage is. Once you've been in the sport long enough, you realize that all you can do is "shoot what's there" and if it's tough, so be it, it's just another challenge.

The only thing that GM's really have any opinion on is what Pat said...GM's hate banks of 4 targets at 5 meters that anybody can point once and pull twice. No challenge = no fun and everybody shoots the same score. Face it, there's a limit to how fast anyone can go at 5 yards, and B and C class shooters can pull the trigger just as fast as an M or GM.

I'm generalizing a bit, but I don't think most GM's would disagree with me.
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Absolutely. Good stage designs can be interesting, challenging and fun for everyone regardless of classification. Generally though, I observe that shooters seem to get the most kick out of shooting true, free-style stages where there are multiple solutions are possible. Certainly, we all like to see stages that test a broad mix of the various IPSC shooting and transitioning skills, but being able to add creative problem solving to this really amps up the fun-factor.
Note also that if you have a five stage level II with 40 no-shoots, it's not necessarily going to make it more challenging. It is however rather punitive for most shooters and can really suck the fun out of a match for a new shooter.
 
7.62mm said:
All I know, is that it doesn't matter how difficult or easy you make a course of fire, someone will complain! Really, sometimes I don't know why the F we do this!
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You might want to leave the task for someone else then. When people have to walk on egg shells around you feeling that you are going to spaz on them any minute it really might be time. Either that or maybe you should start smoking again?
 
Dumbing down stages just so new guys don't get their egos dented isn't gonna help anyone get better.

Anyone who's willing to design/build a match has my permission to make it as easy or as difficult as they want.

Guys who blame their ####ty score on the stage design can FOAD. :)
 
strange

I remember a level 1 match that had more No-Shoots than Shoot targets and near the end an older new shooter came to the line with Tons of Mags, after he shot every target I asked why he shot the no-shoots??? Hsi reply lots more practice that way

supermag
 
cbabes said:
You might want to leave the task for someone else then. When people have to walk on egg shells around you feeling that you are going to spaz on them any minute it really might be time. Either that or maybe you should start smoking again?
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Hey.....that is not a half bad idea.....I'll just shoot and complain.....WOOT....Free at Last....Free at Last!w:h: Instead of taking my holidays and help put on matches, I'll just shoot....thanks for the advice!
 
cbabes said:
You might want to leave the task for someone else then. When people have to walk on egg shells around you feeling that you are going to spaz on them any minute it really might be time. Either that or maybe you should start smoking again?
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Have you ever actually met him?
 
Constructive criticism I can deal with, and encourage it.

Flat out complaints about too easy or too hard is just ridiculous, and tiring.....the same people that complain the most, are never ones that do stage design or Match Direct.

If people want something easy and mundane to shoot, take up Bullseye:p
 
667 said:
Dumbing down stages just so new guys don't get their egos dented isn't gonna help anyone get better.

Anyone who's willing to design/build a match has my permission to make it as easy or as difficult as they want.

Guys who blame their s**tty score on the stage design can FOAD. :)
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Hold on; no one said anything about dumbing anything down. No-shoots certainly have their place in any match and dealing with them is a crucial part of balancing risk/benefit analysis in stage doping. It's a necessary skill just as learning how to call a shot is. But balance of course is the important consideration, as too much of any one thing tends to throw things out of whack. A match that is all 50 meter shots would be no more fun than a match that is all 4 meter shots or all no-shoots. But a match with a little of everything makes things interesting.

It also bears mentioning that a hard cover partial can offer the same target difficulty without adding extra penalties and it won't make the shooter hesitate to re-engage and make up a missed shot. As well, since we have to shoot a great many of our matches indoors with generally poor, often omni-directional and/or low contrast lighting conditions in Canada, shooters with shall we say, less than perfect vision are going to be taking an extra hit on these types of arrays.

For my money ANYONE who is willing to step up and run a match is going way above and beyond the call. In my ideal world though, shooters, match directors and stage designers can all benefit from the huge knowledge pool that is IPSC. We can all learn from each other and thus, raise the bar overall.

Just an opinion though. One voice of many.
 
7.62mm said:
Constructive criticism I can deal with, and encourage it.

Flat out complaints about too easy or too hard is just ridiculous, and tiring.....the same people that complain the most, are never ones that do stage design or Match Direct.

If people want something easy and mundane to shoot, take up Bullseye:p
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Dude, Bullseye shooting is HARD!
And will you please just stop complaining about complainers? Yeesh! ;-)
 
My 2 cents...
The coarse of fire is the coarse of fire...
Everyone shoots the same stage, Someone will win, many will not.
What is in the stage is not really that important as far as the standings go.
The competitor who has put in the most effort will usually win, The new shooter is usually happy to just get through it without a DQ and aspiring shooters usually learn something from those more prepared.
However, I feel the rules (pertaining to stage design) should be primarily geared towards letting the stage designer use as much creative lattitude as possible within the confines of safety (really big key word here).
This sport seems to have fewer people stepping up to these tiring duties, especially when all they hear is "you can't" again and again. Perhaps if these match designers were able to create the matches they envision, just perhaps, more people would do them, we would have more diverse stages with a higher level of interest.
Will a few suck?
Yup.
Will new shooters, physically unfit or disabled shooters have some difficult stages?
Yup, but suck it up, the new shooter will have to learn and the disabled/obese can always take a 20% hit (I doubt this will choose the match winner).
And if you really don't like how the stages are designed, step up and do it your way.
 
Like in all sports, at all levels of competition,
In the end there can only be one.

Rob, why don't you set up a course so that the new shooters and some of the guys who have been around a long time and never improve, can learn how to play the game better? :p For those who want to play better, Rob will work wonders with you. All it takes is time and money but it will be so well worth it!


I like the no shoots by the way. Bring them on. remember they are hostages, and sometimes they need shooting. You can compete in a whole difrent way.:eek:
 
Instead of stacking multiple targets together it is more interesting to force transitions. Between shooting positions, as well as at each individual shooting position, i.e. put targets further apart. If you look at US and international matches, they often have targets that require swing the gun to 90 or even more between targets.

It is hard to set it up at indoor ranges, but I think it still can be done. A lot can be learned from examples, e.g. stages from past Montreal Indoor Challenge and EESA matches, videos from other Level 3 matches on Youtube, etc.

At my RO course we got number of examples how not to do stages, but I still hope some IPSC veterans will come up with a training course that would teach how to design good stages from scratch and how to work around range limitations.
 
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