Terry Perkins
CGN frequent flyer
- Location
- Bruce County
I've known about this tournament for some time, but I just read somewhere else that a Canadian team is attending. Does anybody know who is going? Very curious.
Ireland - May 2007 - F Class
- Thread starter Terry Perkins
- Start date
Terry Perkins
CGN frequent flyer
- Location
- Bruce County
I know nothing about this adventure, have no investment in it, read about it elsewhere...the DCRA did advertise the event, but more than likely will not provide more than information.
Probably not, I'm thinking COOL and damp.
Terry can you
find us a match somewhere that's warm ,not too hot,dry(ok, if it rains but only a little and at night)nice green grass mounds with no bugs and with shuttle service directly to your firepoint?
Oh and would it be too much to ask ,good food,cold beverages and inexpensive fees?
Thanks Terry it's all I want for Xmas.
Cheers Bud
(someone kill this Banana please)
Best
Gord
PS I'll see what I can find out through the DCRA Ireland or UK and get back to you.
find us a match somewhere that's warm ,not too hot,dry(ok, if it rains but only a little and at night)nice green grass mounds with no bugs and with shuttle service directly to your firepoint?
Oh and would it be too much to ask ,good food,cold beverages and inexpensive fees?
Thanks Terry it's all I want for Xmas.
Cheers Bud
(someone kill this Banana please)Best
Gord
PS I'll see what I can find out through the DCRA Ireland or UK and get back to you.
Terry Perkins
CGN frequent flyer
- Location
- Bruce County
I've done some looking around. This event has one day of individual shooting, and one day of team shooting at 300, 500, and 600 yards. Costs 150 Euros to enter (cheapest part of the trip), and total prize money is 3500 Euros.
It would appear that the shooters from KTSA are positioned to do well. They have their own 500 meter range to practise on until they depart for Ireland. I also know the Americans are sending a team, and the Scots and Brits are conveniently located for this event.
This will be a very competitive event. Our neighbours to the south are upset to some degree that they relinquished the FCWC team title to the South Africans. They will be focussing on the team event for sure.
Good luck, and good shooting to the shooters from B.C.
It would appear that the shooters from KTSA are positioned to do well. They have their own 500 meter range to practise on until they depart for Ireland. I also know the Americans are sending a team, and the Scots and Brits are conveniently located for this event.
This will be a very competitive event. Our neighbours to the south are upset to some degree that they relinquished the FCWC team title to the South Africans. They will be focussing on the team event for sure.
Good luck, and good shooting to the shooters from B.C.
Mystic Precision
CGN Ultra frequent flyer
- Location
- Summerland, BC
I went to the Irish site to see if I could get any rules. There were none that I could find.
For shooters that are planning F(O), my guess is the rules will likely be universal for weights, rests, specs.
For F(TR), you better do some snooping. I have been chatting with some US and one from UK. Seems like they don't have any bullet restrictions in 223 or 308 like we do.
Maybe that matters, maybe not. I know they must use bipods though. Again, a difference to our rules I think.
It was funny when I questioned the Americans on why they didn't limit bullet weights, they did their rant about they shoot their way, etc., etc.
One even questioned me how in the world I could have come up with such a thought.
He didn't respond when I explained that F class was a Canadian invention and the rules set forth with bullet limits at the start of it all in F(TR).
Funny how the roots of this most popular sport are so quickly forgotten.
I wish I could go. Bring lots of Gortex. It's not called the Emerald Isle cause it's dry.
Jerry
For shooters that are planning F(O), my guess is the rules will likely be universal for weights, rests, specs.
For F(TR), you better do some snooping. I have been chatting with some US and one from UK. Seems like they don't have any bullet restrictions in 223 or 308 like we do.
Maybe that matters, maybe not. I know they must use bipods though. Again, a difference to our rules I think.
It was funny when I questioned the Americans on why they didn't limit bullet weights, they did their rant about they shoot their way, etc., etc.
One even questioned me how in the world I could have come up with such a thought.
He didn't respond when I explained that F class was a Canadian invention and the rules set forth with bullet limits at the start of it all in F(TR).
Funny how the roots of this most popular sport are so quickly forgotten.
I wish I could go. Bring lots of Gortex. It's not called the Emerald Isle cause it's dry.
Jerry
Terry Perkins
CGN frequent flyer
- Location
- Bruce County
I don't believe bullet weight in 308win will make much difference. The 154 grain Scenar will shoot with the 175SMK and then some. In fact I would favour the Scenar for competition.
I know the F(O) F class folks in the U.S. are in line internationally with the ICFRA rules, but curiously go their own way on F/TR rules. Maybe something about being in the military at one time. Not a problem...when in Rome do as the Romans do.
mysticplayer,
So, you might have noticed the shooting discipline that originated in Canada is being slowly hijacked. It is aggravating as f#ck to be treated as the red haired step-child. We need more excellent shooters to come out and commit, and to develop a super shooting programme. Rant off!
Good Shooting in Ireland,
Terry P
I know the F(O) F class folks in the U.S. are in line internationally with the ICFRA rules, but curiously go their own way on F/TR rules. Maybe something about being in the military at one time. Not a problem...when in Rome do as the Romans do.
mysticplayer,
So, you might have noticed the shooting discipline that originated in Canada is being slowly hijacked. It is aggravating as f#ck to be treated as the red haired step-child. We need more excellent shooters to come out and commit, and to develop a super shooting programme. Rant off!
Good Shooting in Ireland,
Terry P
Mystic Precision
CGN Ultra frequent flyer
- Location
- Summerland, BC
If time and money were more available, I would love to travel and shoot this most Canadian of sports.
I too believe that the 154gr Lapua is a hard bullet to beat out of 308. What concerns me is that instead of a 'basic' class that is perceived as a stable entry point with moderate costs and tech, you end up with a glorified open class catering to only two cartridges and some really risky loading.
Recoil is up, costs start to escalate and the newbie goes why bother. It is hurting just about every shooting sport - skyrocketing costs and tech.
Hey, I love tech and we should always have classes that let you express your imagination and bank account. But we also need the classes where the need to get the biggest/bestest is reduced.
If more countries adopt the US approach, F(TR) will eventually just merge into F(O).
That would be a shame to the roots of this sport.
Jerry
I too believe that the 154gr Lapua is a hard bullet to beat out of 308. What concerns me is that instead of a 'basic' class that is perceived as a stable entry point with moderate costs and tech, you end up with a glorified open class catering to only two cartridges and some really risky loading.
Recoil is up, costs start to escalate and the newbie goes why bother. It is hurting just about every shooting sport - skyrocketing costs and tech.
Hey, I love tech and we should always have classes that let you express your imagination and bank account. But we also need the classes where the need to get the biggest/bestest is reduced.
If more countries adopt the US approach, F(TR) will eventually just merge into F(O).
That would be a shame to the roots of this sport.
Jerry
mysticplayer said:
Excellent point! Cost and time is exactly why I wouldn't bother.
To really compare one markmans' skill to another, the same rifle and same load should be used. Its common sense isn't it?
Instead its a who has good skill, with enough $$$ to afford the best equipment. IMO.
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Sorry to hijack the thread here but....
581, I think everyone shooting the same rifle and load is a step backwards as far as TR goes. We did that for years until TR evolved from SR(B) into what it is today. Gone, thank God are the days of the Enfields, DA and IVI.
Funny thing about this is, the shooters that were winning with those rifles and ammo combinations were still winning when everybody changed over.
Same as when IVI was no longer issued and we went to hand-loads. At the DCRA the top 50 shooters changed very little. The guys winning with IVI were still winning with handloads.
There is a class offered that is not too hard on the pocketbook and is not geared to the tech races. It is called F(M) class. Stock off-the-shelf rifle with very few mods allowed. This is designed to bring new people into the game without deep pockets.
581, I think everyone shooting the same rifle and load is a step backwards as far as TR goes. We did that for years until TR evolved from SR(B) into what it is today. Gone, thank God are the days of the Enfields, DA and IVI.
Funny thing about this is, the shooters that were winning with those rifles and ammo combinations were still winning when everybody changed over.
Same as when IVI was no longer issued and we went to hand-loads. At the DCRA the top 50 shooters changed very little. The guys winning with IVI were still winning with handloads.
There is a class offered that is not too hard on the pocketbook and is not geared to the tech races. It is called F(M) class. Stock off-the-shelf rifle with very few mods allowed. This is designed to bring new people into the game without deep pockets.
Mystic Precision
CGN Ultra frequent flyer
- Location
- Summerland, BC
Is F(M) available as a class at most Fclass matches? At Connaught or Chilliwack?
I only know about Kamloops and the turnout there doesn't even separate TR from O.
I think F(M) is an excellent class idea and should help with entry level shooters. If there were three classes all the time, then the TR should be full on tech for the 223/308 shooters (not that much more can be done until new bullets come out). Of course, the Canadian rules now seem out of place vs the 'open' feeling of other rules.
But then why bother with F(TR) at all? There is no restriction on using a bipod or 22/308 if someone wants to. Why not just clump them all into F(O) and have F(M) as the second class? And on it goes....
Ultimately, I want a class where new shooters can go, compete, have fun without spending a small fortune or get their shoulders dislocated. That can be left for their next rifle.
Jerry
I only know about Kamloops and the turnout there doesn't even separate TR from O.
I think F(M) is an excellent class idea and should help with entry level shooters. If there were three classes all the time, then the TR should be full on tech for the 223/308 shooters (not that much more can be done until new bullets come out). Of course, the Canadian rules now seem out of place vs the 'open' feeling of other rules.
But then why bother with F(TR) at all? There is no restriction on using a bipod or 22/308 if someone wants to. Why not just clump them all into F(O) and have F(M) as the second class? And on it goes....
Ultimately, I want a class where new shooters can go, compete, have fun without spending a small fortune or get their shoulders dislocated. That can be left for their next rifle.
Jerry
Rohann said:
Sorry Rohann its properly called "Irish" or "Gaeilge" the term "Gaelic" is a blanket term that refers to Irish, Scottish and Manx. None of which are the same language. You could refer to it as "Irish Gaelic" but that would be pretty rare.
So "Irish" is first official language of the Republic of Ireland. Unless your speaking in the Irish Language, then you would call it "Gaeilge"
Simple
Jerry,
I think we need all 3 classes of the F Class. The F(F) as it was concieved was to allow shooters that were no longer competitive using irons to still compete with the rifles they already had, .308 and .223. Mount a scope on your TR and you are good to go in F(F). Not much of a tech war in this class.
The F(O) Open on the other hand will always be for the shooters that want to see how much accuracy they can squeeze out of their rifle, money being no object insome cases. Scores show the F(F) and F(O) are not equal, so why shoot a match with a F(F) rifle when you know the F(O) has the advantage if all lumped together?
The F(M) class is not designed for experienced shooters just out looking for a win, but more for entry level shooters, that we are in dire need of.
Scores also show the F(M) is not equal to F(F) much the same a F(O) scores are not equal to F(O).
The F(F) shooter can shoot in a higher class if he wishes, just by not sticking to the bullet weight rules.
All 3 F classes are offered here in Ontario and at the DCRA matches as well. Entries are not as high in F(M) as one might expect but if you don't offer something like this, you won't get many new shooters. Maybe the DCRA needs to change the F(M) to a maximum of 600 yards. This way more people may come out and play.
I think we need all 3 classes of the F Class. The F(F) as it was concieved was to allow shooters that were no longer competitive using irons to still compete with the rifles they already had, .308 and .223. Mount a scope on your TR and you are good to go in F(F). Not much of a tech war in this class.
The F(O) Open on the other hand will always be for the shooters that want to see how much accuracy they can squeeze out of their rifle, money being no object insome cases. Scores show the F(F) and F(O) are not equal, so why shoot a match with a F(F) rifle when you know the F(O) has the advantage if all lumped together?
The F(M) class is not designed for experienced shooters just out looking for a win, but more for entry level shooters, that we are in dire need of.
Scores also show the F(M) is not equal to F(F) much the same a F(O) scores are not equal to F(O).
The F(F) shooter can shoot in a higher class if he wishes, just by not sticking to the bullet weight rules.
All 3 F classes are offered here in Ontario and at the DCRA matches as well. Entries are not as high in F(M) as one might expect but if you don't offer something like this, you won't get many new shooters. Maybe the DCRA needs to change the F(M) to a maximum of 600 yards. This way more people may come out and play.
Mystic Precision
CGN Ultra frequent flyer
- Location
- Summerland, BC
maynard, that is fantastic news. I am very glad that a match will have a place for new shooters to go. We must have these new shooters!!!!
I really don't think that distance will resolve the problem of equipment. Most factory rifles (actually the barrel) simply loose accuracy as they heat up. What we could do is make their targets BIGGER at all distances.
Right now the techie rifles shoot on a 1/2 MOA X and MOA 10 ring. How about making the 10 their X, the 9 their 10, etc.? You have now given them targets that are no problem to shoot possibles on. Essentially, they would continue to shoot on the open sight TR targets. Simple.
I can say that IF the barrels don't warp, many Savage rifles can hold 1/2MOA at 300m. Never seen them shot further in a match but I am sure that is now a function of shooter not equipment.
So, I think a big part of why we have so much tech and costs is the perception that one needs all this super high end stuff to be competitive (you certainly hear that alot on many shooting forums). A super full meal deal mega dollar custom F class rig shoots 1/4MOA or a bit less. A good shooting factory Savage/Stevens 1/2 MOA. Certainly, that accurate with a barrel swap (maybe equal).
A quality match barrel is very important for max performance, that is without dispute but all the other stuff isn't that critical in a game like F class. I hope that point has been proven with my project rifles.
Is 1/4 MOA really worth the extra thousands spent?
Wind doping and shooting skills are really what separate the top 10 from the rest of the pack. And you get that skill by burning alot of powder and sending alot of lead down range.
As some find out on match day, you can't buy or have someone build skills. Hopefully, that will never change.
Jerry
I really don't think that distance will resolve the problem of equipment. Most factory rifles (actually the barrel) simply loose accuracy as they heat up. What we could do is make their targets BIGGER at all distances.
Right now the techie rifles shoot on a 1/2 MOA X and MOA 10 ring. How about making the 10 their X, the 9 their 10, etc.? You have now given them targets that are no problem to shoot possibles on. Essentially, they would continue to shoot on the open sight TR targets. Simple.
I can say that IF the barrels don't warp, many Savage rifles can hold 1/2MOA at 300m. Never seen them shot further in a match but I am sure that is now a function of shooter not equipment.
So, I think a big part of why we have so much tech and costs is the perception that one needs all this super high end stuff to be competitive (you certainly hear that alot on many shooting forums). A super full meal deal mega dollar custom F class rig shoots 1/4MOA or a bit less. A good shooting factory Savage/Stevens 1/2 MOA. Certainly, that accurate with a barrel swap (maybe equal).
A quality match barrel is very important for max performance, that is without dispute but all the other stuff isn't that critical in a game like F class. I hope that point has been proven with my project rifles.
Is 1/4 MOA really worth the extra thousands spent?
Wind doping and shooting skills are really what separate the top 10 from the rest of the pack. And you get that skill by burning alot of powder and sending alot of lead down range.
As some find out on match day, you can't buy or have someone build skills. Hopefully, that will never change.
Jerry
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windborne11
Regular
- Location
- SW Ontario
Jerry, the factory class is a great idea, that unfortunatly has not really caught on. two years ago I ordered what I thought would be the ultimate "Factory class " rifle. And it was, I won the F Factory class at Ottawa in 2005. My Savage beat 2 other rifles.
Last winter I built an FF rifle and an FO rifle. During 2006 I only saw five Factory rifles shot. A decline from the past year.
It appears to me that there is a definite hurdle that the factory rifle owner is not prepared to jump. It probably comes down to an issue of effort, or lack of confidence, or the time or money that competition requires.
for the factory class to be successfull, I think it has to get even less complicated than simple. Its simple now, but thats too tough.
Limiting the range distance to 300 yds would probably give the factory rifle shooter a little more confidence. But then who wants to shoot at 300 yds all day??
Eliminating handloads would make things simpler, but more expensive in the long run.
It still comes down to the fact that there are guys who just want to go out and shoot, and guys who want to win.
The guys who want to win will spend the money buying the right equiptment, and spend the time and put the effort into improving.
The guys who just want to shoot, will get tired of getting smoked by the guys who want to win.
Then the serious guys will buy or build FO rifles and move out of the Factory class. So at the end of the year nobody is left.
So what is the solution?? No idea.... maybe one idea.
Perhaps a rule where Factory class, is for previosly owned rifles and scopes.
you cant go out and buy a Savage, install a target scope, and handload.
But what if you don't own a rifle. You have to start somewheres.???
So how about if the new shooter must buy a Stevens .223, a 3 x 9 scope,
and shoot off the shelf ammo.??
That would at least level the playing field. And keep costs low.
What do you think Tom???
Edit: I see that you cant buy a Stevens in .223 , have to go with a Savage package for $500.00.
Last winter I built an FF rifle and an FO rifle. During 2006 I only saw five Factory rifles shot. A decline from the past year.
It appears to me that there is a definite hurdle that the factory rifle owner is not prepared to jump. It probably comes down to an issue of effort, or lack of confidence, or the time or money that competition requires.
for the factory class to be successfull, I think it has to get even less complicated than simple. Its simple now, but thats too tough.
Limiting the range distance to 300 yds would probably give the factory rifle shooter a little more confidence. But then who wants to shoot at 300 yds all day??
Eliminating handloads would make things simpler, but more expensive in the long run.
It still comes down to the fact that there are guys who just want to go out and shoot, and guys who want to win.
The guys who want to win will spend the money buying the right equiptment, and spend the time and put the effort into improving.
The guys who just want to shoot, will get tired of getting smoked by the guys who want to win.
Then the serious guys will buy or build FO rifles and move out of the Factory class. So at the end of the year nobody is left.
So what is the solution?? No idea.... maybe one idea.
Perhaps a rule where Factory class, is for previosly owned rifles and scopes.
you cant go out and buy a Savage, install a target scope, and handload.
But what if you don't own a rifle. You have to start somewheres.???
So how about if the new shooter must buy a Stevens .223, a 3 x 9 scope,
and shoot off the shelf ammo.??
That would at least level the playing field. And keep costs low.
What do you think Tom???
Edit: I see that you cant buy a Stevens in .223 , have to go with a Savage package for $500.00.
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Mystic Precision
CGN Ultra frequent flyer
- Location
- Summerland, BC
You can't please everyone.
Oh well, the sport will figure itself out over time. The shooters will drive the direction and the sport will evolve.
I still like a factory class and the idea of a one rifle, one ammo class is great but will not appeal to many shooters.
Jerry
Oh well, the sport will figure itself out over time. The shooters will drive the direction and the sport will evolve.
I still like a factory class and the idea of a one rifle, one ammo class is great but will not appeal to many shooters.
Jerry
