Is 2 3/4 enough for a "tactical" shot gun?

echo4lima said:
redleg said:
The police seem to be pretty content with low recoil 00 buck and slug. They work pretty well on anything less maybe a big bear.
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Do police ever worry about 'over penetration' or possibley going through a wall and people in the next room? I would guess that if they had such an incident, that they would likely be exhonorated with much more ease than you or I.....Seems every source that I can find, or the vast majority of...suggest 2-3/4" #1 Buck....
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Given that in most shootings only about 20% of shots fires are hits, worrying about over penetrating the BG is really misguided. Penetration through walls is important, but 00 does not really provide much in the way of penetration compared to say a handgun bullet. It certainly does provide better ballistics across a room even when compared to #1 buck. And finally, at extended ranges ( 15+ m) which may be possible even in a house, 00 allows you to better control the numbers of errant pellets.
 
Do police ever worry about 'over penetration' or possibley going through a wall and people in the next room?
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And see that's why I come to CGN. All this time I thought you could shoot as many innocent bystanders as your bag limit would allow. :lol:
 
Just so you don't think i am blowing smoke outta my ass...here are some of the articles I found, I am not an expert, just relaying information as I have found it.

Number 1 buck is the smallest diameter shot that reliably and consistently penetrates more than 12 inches of standard ordnance gelatin when fired at typical shotgun engagement distances. A standard 2 ¾-inch 12 gauge shotshell contains 16 pellets of #1 buck. The total combined cross sectional area of the 16 pellets is 1.13 square inches. Compared to the total combined cross sectional area of the nine pellets in a standard #00 (double-aught) buck shotshell (0.77 square inches), the # 1 buck shotshell has the capacity to produce over 30 percent more potentially effective wound trauma.
http://www.firearmstactical.com/briefs10.htm

Some shooters prefer #4 or #1 buckshot over 00 buck. Real world one shot stopping success of the #4 buck is a respectable 81-83%. Data hasn't been collected for the #1 buck, but its performance should be even better.
http://www.internetarmory.com/shotgun_ammo.htm

I would personally go with #1 buckshot (20 .30 caliber projectiles) in a full power 12 gauge load, or reduced-recoil 00 buck (nine .33 caliber projectiles), or #3 buckshot (20 .25 caliber pellets) for a 20 gauge home defense shotgun.
http://www.findarticles.com/p/articles/mi_m0BTT/is_151_25/ai_70380696/pg_2

In all shotshell loads, number 1 buckshot produces more potentially effective wound trauma than either #00 or #000 buck. In addition, number 1 buck is less likely to over-penetrate and exit an attacker's body.
http://www.freerepublic.com/forum/a37b5daa50a0f.htm

As far as LEO agencies always using it, it may be a simple case of "We use 00 because we always have" syndrome, which is what happens when someone lives by the creed "If it ain't broke, don't fix it". Sometimes ,yes it has proven to be the most effective, but where there is a 'way', there usually is also a better more effective method to do the same task and there will always be those that refuse to embrace progress or another means to an end.
 
Thats a good read but even at it's best a shotgun is not your best home defence round(even with a slug)! Even your best pistol is just to get you back to your rifle(which is your best defence gun)!

The max penetration and energy generated is why the rifle(most any 30 cal or bigger)will out preform any shotgun round!

But if all you have is a pistol or a shotgun(then by all means load up with the shotgun) 001 or 00buck(S&B 00buck)!

Hunting bear and shooting people with any kind of vests on is quite different!

Bad guys wear vests,bears just don't care!!!

Rifles kill big game 200lbs and more,shotguns kill winged fowl!!!

A shot gun slug is 70 cal a 375 H&H is about 38 cal,which one would you rather shoot a big bear with? Even with the cal disavantage I would rather have the penetration advantage of the 375 H&H!

Bob :)
 
I got one for christmas a while ago now, and I have been customizing it ever since. I bought a 20 inch barrel at Elwood Epps for $140. It has removeable chokes and its got a 3 inch chamber. I would pick up the gun and invest in a decent barrel.

Pictures078.jpg
 
Nice Shotty Pure Energy! :D

Also bobbyjack in Canada our Scumbags don't tend to wear body armour in home invasions (Yet)...Nor do they weigh as much as a Mule Deer, or Moose. :mrgreen:
 
Thats a good read but even at it's best a shotgun is not your best home defence round(even with a slug)! Even your best pistol is just to get you back to your rifle(which is your best defence gun)!
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WRONG! - Best home for defense is prevention, but failing that a shotgun with birdshot, It comes out a slut and stays that way for about 10 feet, with no overpenetration to hit people behind walls.

A slug can generate anywhere from 1300ft lbs - 3000ft lbs of energy at the muzzle. I don't know where you are getting your information from.

Rifles kill big game 200lbs and more,shotguns kill winged fowl!!!
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I've killed grouse with a rifle and killed deer with a shotgun using slugs. Again WRONG!

A shot gun slug is 70 cal a 375 H&H is about 38 cal,which one would you rather shoot a big bear with? Even with the cal disavantage I would rather have the penetration advantage of the 375 H&H!
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Depending on the range, up to 75 yards a shotgun is good, but that would depend on the shooter. Using a 7mm Mauser/ .308, 30/06 etc is good for bear and a lot of people can't handle a 375 whatever.

RePete.
 
Ya beat me to it RePete...

Rifle is no different than a handgun in a house. In a house, in the middle of the night...half asleep, it doesn't take a rocket scientist to figure, several larger .30 cal projectiles against a possibble low light, moving target is better than a single pistol or rifle round....or maybe it does take a rocket scientist :lol: :lol: Sides, moving room to room, better off with shorter shottie, buckshot, and if the guy is wearing a vest, multiple shots, and as I have stated so many time before, shot placement is so important....you can't wear a vest on your head..... :mrgreen:
 
I got one for christmas a while ago now, and I have been customizing it ever since. I bought a 20 inch barrel at Elwood Epps for $140. It has removeable chokes and its got a 3 inch chamber. I would pick up the gun and invest in a decent barrel.
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Pure Energy, that's the nicest looking tactical I've seen - a mixture of the old and new, especially like the fact that you retained the wood forend.

Is it difficult to add the pistol/folding stock?
 
Double 0 or No. 4's EH

In "tactical terms" you should pattern your 12ga at various ranges. My two picks for what might be euphemistically entitled "inside the barn shooting" would be No. 4 shot which throws a very respectable pattern at a number of ranges and in sufficient shot concentration to do the job. The00 solution seems to be a universal police choice judging from the number of empty hulls so labelled at municipal, provincial ,and federal ranges I have walked on and wondered why no one took the "good empties back to reload".
As for slugs there really is the NECESSITY to have a good back stop! At one nameless Northern Ontario Community on the shores of Lake Superior a law enforcement officer shot a marauding bear with a 12 ga slug which traversed the bear and exited to go thro a woods behind for 100 metres or more then trhu a kitchen door of a residence to caroom around the kitchen while a mother and her children took cover underneath their kitchen table until the slug hit the fridge and expired.
YES,slugs do have lots of energy! What do they weigh? 600 grains? 1400 fps velocity..not like no 8 birdshot that wont make it past 400 metres at a 30 degree angle of fire.
Their other characteristic is the tendency to ricochet.
 
Hell if your using it for tactical reasons a good 20 gauge is great. Usually the guns are lighter, recoil is less, recovery time is less and they don't shake your brains around as much. Just about as effective as the 12 gauge but more user friendly.
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What did they say in the bad old days? TWENTY IS PLENTY.\


Didn't Bonnie carry a sawed of auto 5 in 20 guage?
 
Two and three-quarter is plenty, I do recommend to a 3" chambered barrel with maximum IC choke. This will allow you the flexibility to use various specialty loads ( breaching rounds, OC/CS projectiles and flares......).

Contrary, to some post I do reccommend 00 buck during winter and fall months as the added 'grainage' (is that a word) will penetrate winter clothing/coats.

I must look into this 1 buck rounds a bit more?

Remember to pattern your shotties, once you start losing pellets....select slug!!! :mrgreen:
 
Contrary, to some post I do reccommend 00 buck during winter and fall months as the added 'grainage' (is that a word) will penetrate winter clothing/coats.
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I keep the 000 for the winter loads...that and slugs...
 
Quote:

Contrary, to some post I do reccommend 00 buck during winter and fall months as the added 'grainage' (is that a word) will penetrate winter clothing/coats.



I keep the 000 for the winter loads...that and slugs...
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X'S 2.


AND bb"S FOR THE HOUSE. :p
 
No Way!

I am the world's biggest proponent of 2 3/4" for hunting. I have come across very few arguments to support my buying something that will shoot 3 1/2 (althought my Win 1300 black shadow will take 3", I've never fed these to it).

For a tactical gun, however, my feeling is that you should go big or go home. 2 3/" is likely enough, but for what you are contemplating its use for, why take the chance? This application is the only one that I can see me pulling the big shells out for.

If it were up to me and I were looking for a tactical gun, i would buy a good quality pump gun that took 3 or 3.5 inch shells with pistol grips and on the limit of restricted barrel and no plug in the mag. Its going to kick like a mule, but you hope like hell you never have to feel that kick.
 
In reality, what are you plannign to take on? Probably like the rest of us you'll use your tactical shjotgun to look cool at the range, and sort out problem bears in camp. 2.75" is good enough. They worked for years and bears and paper targets aren't any tougher these days.
 
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