Is 38super really as bad ass as the numbers say it is?

OP- also be careful with your loading. Lots of IPSC guys load well beyond recommended SAMI specs for 38s to meet power factor. Shooting out of STI raceguns is fine but out of a Colt, not sure.

Agreed. I bought a bunch of 38 Super ammo that had been loaded for IPSC. I checked the powder loads against some manuals and they were all hot loaded. I pulled the bullets and reduced the powder charges. I feel no need to beat the crap out of my gun.:)
 
so far after the feed back i've gotten on here, and the reading it lead me towards.... i came to this conclusion.

projectile expansion and damage generated is fairly similar between 9mm to 45acp. where performance differs is how these cartridges transfer their energy to said target. as i had earlier speculated smaller projectile at a higher rate of speed punches through a target before it can effectively transfer energy and create stopping power. with the 45acp and similar cartridges their weight to speed ratio allows them to transfer that energy more effectively.

At the end of the day the 45 packs more punch than a 9mm, 38 super and the 40S&W. With that being said i see my new 38 super as a more effective round than the 9mm (allows for higher velocities with heavier projectiles). But then again with proper shot placement a 22lr does the trick.

thanks for the help guys.

Forget "energy transfer". A bullet stopped by body armour has transferred all its energy to the wearer, but causes only minor injuries.

Wounding at typical handgun energy levels is solely a function of tissue in contact with the bullet being crushed. Given equivalent construction, the larger diameter bullet will create a bigger wound channel, but this is fairly insignificant in practice. Increasing velocity beyond where the bullet was designed to expand can actually be counterproductive, as the bullet starts to fold back on itself, resulting in a smaller expanded diameter and less efficient tissue cutting shape.

If you look at the link I posted, the .357 SIG, which is comparable to .38 Super, has essentially identical performance to the two 9mm loads. A projectile can only expand so much, and it only requires so much velocity to make it expand. This is why .38 Super is at best just a 9mm with more recoil that requires a larger-framed pistol to accommodate it.
 
Bullets stopped by armour reduce injury for 2 reasons. Doesn't allow the projectile to penetrate tissue using strong fabrics such as Kevlar or an actual plate. Both these to a certain degree distribute the energy over a larger area, resulting in bruising and maybe broken bones.

The wound channel isn't the only aspect that makes a projectile effective. Mass, momentum and surface area are the big players. You mentioned the 45 wins because it's bigger and creates a bigger hole. Your right to a degree. That greater surface area does cut and tear but it helps transfer energy. Similar to a parachute opening. Greater surface area grabs more and transfers momentum slowing it down in the target. If you stood in one place and had someone run past you and grab ahold and try pulling you with them what would you rather have? 250lb man or 120lb? The 120 lb man might just throw you off balance vs 250 would knock you over... With this being said this only works as well as your projectile. Travel too fast or too slow and it's effectiveness can diminish.

This is where I claim the 38 super is superior to a 9mm. I speculate that since the 38 super has more room for powder it can move the heavier projectiles at a speed that's more effective or efficient than the 9mm could. I'm looking at the heavier projectiles such as 147gr.... A 38 super would push it roughly 950fps where 9mm would be 750-800. This allows it to generate more momentum and expand the projectile effectively.

Again just my perspective and opinion. Could be wrong.... I asked the question to learn and this is what I came up with.

Am I out in left field?
 
Actually, the vast majority of experts in the field of wound ballistics agree that wounding effect for pistols is solely a function of the wound channel. There is no such thing as "knock down" power in small arms. This paper will give you a solid grasp of the principles:

http://www.firearmstactical.com/pdf/fbi-hwfe.pdf

I don't think you realize it, but the author of the post with the gelatin shots I linked to is Dr. Gary Roberts, who is pretty much the foremost expert on wound ballistics today. I suspect that what he has to say may be worth listening to.
http://www.dtic.mil/ndia/2008Intl/Roberts.pdf
 
interesting read.

pretty much boils down to run what you're comfortable shooting, and what you're capable of shooting. and bigger is better.

i'll still argue that there is potential for the 38super to be superior to the 9mm. my only argument would be that with it's increased muzzel velocities it can provide a flatter shooting projectile, and maintained velocity at greater distance. again this would all be speculative to what projectile is being used and if it needed that added velocity to deform the projectile.


But then again that reading indicated only a small percentage of pistol projectiles actually deform as designed.

good reading, thanks for the information.

is making debate weather i want to build a 300blk or a 6.8SPC...... got any more reading for me?

thanks again.
 
The difference in trajectory will be negligible: around a couple inches at 100 yards. Either will allow a dead-on hold out to 50 yards. Considering that 25 yards is a long pistol shot for most shooters, anything beyond that is academic.

It should also be mentioned that bullet designs have improved since the late '80s, when the FBI paper was written. Better bullet testing using gelatin blocks covered with four layers of denim has promoted the design of more robust expanding bullets that are much less likely to fail.

For more recommended reading, I suggest you read the other stickies from DocGKR here:
http://pistol-forum.com/forumdisplay.php?19-Ammunition
 
There are a lot of conditions and factors to consider in the context of a COMPETION handgun caliber :Consider a 38 Super 115 gr FMJ doing 1600 fps - do the energy math!
BUT under these conditions: 1. A ramped, fully supported barrel is a must! 2. Use only P+ brass designed specifically for the higher pressures. 3.Selection of the appropriate powder is critical (HS6) 4. Use small rifle primers 5. Use of "appropriate" recoil spring and "shock buffs".
This combination is designed for use in a "compensated" barrel/handgun to increase the gas flow and thereby reduce the "muzzle flip" - enhancing the accuracy of the second shot of a "double tap".

Is it "hard" on a gun? Not as hard as the .40S&W. The .40 gained its popularity for the same reason 9mm was so popular years ago - lots of cheap readily available brass of 9mm from the military and now .40 from Police Services. But, whatever advantage the .40 apparently had is now being overshadowed by the damage the "sharper recoil" inflicts on both the gun and shooter.

High level competition IPSC shooting requires 100% reliability match after match. ONE "glitch" puts the shooter "out of the hunt". Various "wildcat calibers" were created and used in IPSC in hopes of finding that MAGIC EDGE but in my opinion none performed as well as the .38 Super when used as described above.

I don't feel its appropriate to discuss or elaborate on the various body armor piercing capabiites of different calibers in these forums - however its suffice to say as an instructor asked by a group of LEO's to demonstrate the .38 Super's effect on body armour - their comment was "Holy S€#T I hope we don't encounter THAT on the streets".

And BTW these comments are based on the experiece of shooting 60,000 rnds/year for about 15 yrs in competition.
 
The .38 Super was commonly carried by law enforcement officers in the USA during the Capone era because it was the best round for penetrating gangster body armour. It remains one of the best (non-special) rounds for penetration.

A comparison of lethality vs stopping power has been given by looking at a hypersonic darning needle vs a thrown half-brick. It's possible to move the needle fast enough that is has the same kinetic energy as the brick. The needle, with proper placement, has high lethality, but an adrenalin-soaked target might not even feel it until he bled out inside. The brick has great stopping power but, unless you get hit in the head, has low lethality.

Moreover, as mentioned, early 20th century US Army trials in cattle showed that it took many FMJ .30 Luger bullets to kill the animals vice just a couple of rounds from, eg, .45 Colt. This was despite the .30 Luger not exiting (thus having shed 100% of its KE) and despite the .30 Luger having a far higher muzzle energy.

In short, KE is nice, but in pistols it does not seem to be The prime factor in stopping power.

Bottom line is that large diameter bullets - for whatever reason - cause more immediate distress (stopping power, ie) than smaller ones. Bullet diameter seems to trump high velocity. Heavier bullets help and Keith-style bullets work better than round-nose ones, which in turn work better than pointed ones, all other things being equal.

Cards read.

Of course, as noted elsewhere, the Ace is always placement. Too much gun makes that harder, making it less effective overall.
 
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I was wondering when someone would mention the 7.62X25. Fastest mover of the bunch and a smaller bullet size, which equates to a scary level of penetration in the military FMJ loads.
 
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