Is .40 Smith and Wesson Going The Way of the Dodo?

9x19 benefits from more bullet R&D dollars than any other pistol caliber by far at this point.

This usually results in companies being able to extract more of its potential compared to the other calibers, even within the same bullet design family.

Not sure why you think that?? All pistol calibers benefit from R&D.

The main reasons why 9mm is so popular has more to do with ammo cost, longevity of pistol frames and parts and better recoil management than it does with terminal performance.

Granted it's better in the performance dept. than it was years ago but so is the 40 cal, 45 cal etc.

No shade on the 9mm however - It has evolved into a capable cartridge and is now an excellent choice for Law Enforcement and civilian carry.
 
Not sure why you think that?? All pistol calibers benefit from R&D.

The main reasons why 9mm is so popular has more to do with ammo cost, longevity of pistol frames and parts and better recoil management than it does with terminal performance.

Granted it's better in the performance dept. than it was years ago but so is the 40 cal, 45 cal etc.

No shade on the 9mm however - It has evolved into a capable cartridge and is now an excellent choice for Law Enforcement and civilian carry.

9x19 represents the majority of the North American and global handgun duty caliber market.

It's first in line when it comes to JHP development, and produces the most real world feedback, creating a snowball effect when it comes to further development vs calibers that are declining in popularity.
 
No dog in this fight either, but the next pistol I buy is going to be in 40S&W. other then 9mm it’s the easiest center fire pistol cartridge to find in my area for the last few years.
 
It is not going to go away as there are tens of thousands of 40 caliber firearms produced. Those will last decades and people will still want to ammunition for them. The same way that you can still walk in to a Walmart or Canadian Tire and purchase a box of 303 British. Unlikely to find a new firearm in 303 British but ammunition is still around because people own tens of thousands of lee enfields.
 
It is not going to go away as there are tens of thousands of 40 caliber firearms produced. Those will last decades and people will still want to ammunition for them. The same way that you can still walk in to a Walmart or Canadian Tire and purchase a box of 303 British. Unlikely to find a new firearm in 303 British but ammunition is still around because people own tens of thousands of lee enfields.

Very true regarding ammo availability for guns that are no longer available.

Incidentally, I just sold some of my .40S&W ammo last night to another CGNer.
 
Not sure why you think that?? All pistol calibers benefit from R&D.

He might be saying it because the ballisticians from the ammunition companies competing for police contracts have said that is what's happening: FAR more of their time and money for R&D goes into 9mm versus the other service cartridges i.e. 40 S&W, 357 SIG, and 45 ACP. And alongside the police market worldwide, there's the civilian defensive carry side in the US. These are businesses, not competing hockey teams: they want to get as much of the market as they can, it's a business decision. And you're going to make a lot more money by improving the 9mm and closing whatever the perceived gap is with other calibers, than spending that money and time instead trying to develop the ultimate 40 S&W, .357 SIG, and .45 ACP three or four smaller markets. Smaller markets that, in total, don't come close to matching the size of the 9mm market.

As a result, the 9mm has benefited from a lot more improvement than the other service calibers. That's the guys from those companies saying that, not just some randos with a YouTube channel or self defense shooting school. That will probably continue to be true for a while yet.

The main reasons why 9mm is so popular has more to do with ammo cost, longevity of pistol frames and parts and better recoil management than it does with terminal performance.

Money and funding is always going to be a factor with enforcement agencies. That said, given all the police unions and organizations in the US, I have a hard time believing they'd be sitting silent if they were watching some of their members die in gunfights because assailants that would have been stopped by the terminal performance of one of the other calibers instead lived to kill their fellow police officers.

Granted it's better in the performance dept. than it was years ago but so is the 40 cal, 45 cal etc.

No, the improvement across ALL the service calibers is not the same, it is not linear at all.

You don't just take a Gold Dot or HST and just scale the dimensions up to another caliber and call it good to go. Unless those same ballistic engineers who say the majority of time and R&D money goes into 9mm are lying, there has not been an equal improvement across all service calibers. All have improved, and significantly, but the 9mm far more than the others, probably due to all the extra time and money being piled into R&D for that cartridge.

There's an LEO caliber/ammunition forum on the internet that is well populated by those in the business from the forensic pathology/development end as well as cops from large departments whose job it is to select and/or advise their department on caliber - and what make and model of ammunition to go with. Many as part of their job do the reviews of every police shooting, and how the service ammunition performed among other things. Others are retired from that line of work but are still interested and take part in discussions.

The general consensus over there for the last few years has been that, in the real world, with modern service ammunition, the 9mm gives up nothing as a police service round to any other common service caliber. Over the last few years I've seen a lot of posts from police officers saying their department has decided to go with the 9mm versus the 40 S&W - for those carrying Glocks, I'm sure Glock makes that easy and economical.

I have yet to see a thread or posts show up where police are saying that they are getting much poorer results since dropping the 40 S&W for 9mm. Or alternately, a department that decided the 9mm just wasn't as effective as 40 S&W or another caliber and dropped the 9mm to move to another caliber. Most of the complaints that do surface on that forum concern a change made in ammunition choice within a caliber.

I'm not really interested nor have time to argue any of the above on the internet (caliber opinions from those on the outside are about as good as "what's the best oil for my motorcycle). If you think any or all of the above is false, I'd be happy to give you a link to that forum. You don't have to be in law enforcement to register an account, start a thread, and tell the SMEs there that they're wrong on 9mm versus the 40 S&W. One or two work as forensic pathologists and ballisticians for the big ammunition companies manufacturing service ammunition. They will probably take the time to disagree with and debate you. And probably ask you what you have for hands on experience and data to back your opinion. I may show up with popcorn in hand to watch if you (or anybody else) would like to do that.

All that said, I have a couple of 40 S&W firearms that aren't going anywhere, and I foresee reloading for them for years to come. I have five gallon buckets of brass and I don't believe the bullets to load them with are going to disappear in my lifetime.

One definite advantage 40 S&W has over 9mm is if someone uses their 40 S&W is as their choice of a camp/survival gun. Not my choice for that job, but for those who choose one of the little Kel-Tec or similar carbines for a survival/camp gun, the WFN and similar ammunition specifically developed for that purpose is much better than 9mm.

In fact, my guess is that in that case, the reverse happens: more money and time for R&D goes into 40 S&W for that purpose than gets put into 9mm. And now it's the 9mm that hasn't benefited as much as the 40 S&W. Unfortunately, whatever handgun caliber, only a fraction of the R&D time and money goes into critter ammunition versus service/self defense ammunition.
 
He might be saying it because the ballisticians from the ammunition companies competing for police contracts have said that is what's happening: FAR more of their time and money for R&D goes into 9mm versus the other service cartridges i.e. 40 S&W, 357 SIG, and 45 ACP. And alongside the police market worldwide, there's the civilian defensive carry side in the US. These are businesses, not competing hockey teams: they want to get as much of the market as they can, it's a business decision. And you're going to make a lot more money by improving the 9mm and closing whatever the perceived gap is with other calibers, than spending that money and time instead trying to develop the ultimate 40 S&W, .357 SIG, and .45 ACP three or four smaller markets. Smaller markets that, in total, don't come close to matching the size of the 9mm market.

As a result, the 9mm has benefited from a lot more improvement than the other service calibers. That's the guys from those companies saying that, not just some randos with a YouTube channel or self defense shooting school. That will probably continue to be true for a while yet.



Money and funding is always going to be a factor with enforcement agencies. That said, given all the police unions and organizations in the US, I have a hard time believing they'd be sitting silent if they were watching some of their members die in gunfights because assailants that would have been stopped by the terminal performance of one of the other calibers instead lived to kill their fellow police officers.



No, the improvement across ALL the service calibers is not the same, it is not linear at all.

You don't just take a Gold Dot or HST and just scale the dimensions up to another caliber and call it good to go. Unless those same ballistic engineers who say the majority of time and R&D money goes into 9mm are lying, there has not been an equal improvement across all service calibers. All have improved, and significantly, but the 9mm far more than the others, probably due to all the extra time and money being piled into R&D for that cartridge.

There's an LEO caliber/ammunition forum on the internet that is well populated by those in the business from the forensic pathology/development end as well as cops from large departments whose job it is to select and/or advise their department on caliber - and what make and model of ammunition to go with. Many as part of their job do the reviews of every police shooting, and how the service ammunition performed among other things. Others are retired from that line of work but are still interested and take part in discussions.

The general consensus over there for the last few years has been that, in the real world, with modern service ammunition, the 9mm gives up nothing as a police service round to any other common service caliber. Over the last few years I've seen a lot of posts from police officers saying their department has decided to go with the 9mm versus the 40 S&W - for those carrying Glocks, I'm sure Glock makes that easy and economical.

I have yet to see a thread or posts show up where police are saying that they are getting much poorer results since dropping the 40 S&W for 9mm. Or alternately, a department that decided the 9mm just wasn't as effective as 40 S&W or another caliber and dropped the 9mm to move to another caliber. Most of the complaints that do surface on that forum concern a change made in ammunition choice within a caliber.

I'm not really interested nor have time to argue any of the above on the internet (caliber opinions from those on the outside are about as good as "what's the best oil for my motorcycle). If you think any or all of the above is false, I'd be happy to give you a link to that forum. You don't have to be in law enforcement to register an account, start a thread, and tell the SMEs there that they're wrong on 9mm versus the 40 S&W. One or two work as forensic pathologists and ballisticians for the big ammunition companies manufacturing service ammunition. They will probably take the time to disagree with and debate you. And probably ask you what you have for hands on experience and data to back your opinion. I may show up with popcorn in hand to watch if you (or anybody else) would like to do that.

All that said, I have a couple of 40 S&W firearms that aren't going anywhere, and I foresee reloading for them for years to come. I have five gallon buckets of brass and I don't believe the bullets to load them with are going to disappear in my lifetime.

One definite advantage 40 S&W has over 9mm is if someone uses their 40 S&W is as their choice of a camp/survival gun. Not my choice for that job, but for those who choose one of the little Kel-Tec or similar carbines for a survival/camp gun, the WFN and similar ammunition specifically developed for that purpose is much better than 9mm.

In fact, my guess is that in that case, the reverse happens: more money and time for R&D goes into 40 S&W for that purpose than gets put into 9mm. And now it's the 9mm that hasn't benefited as much as the 40 S&W. Unfortunately, whatever handgun caliber, only a fraction of the R&D time and money goes into critter ammunition versus service/self defense ammunition.

Thanks for the very informative post.

Yes walking into my LGS earlier this year, there is definitely a commensurate amount of various 9mm defensive ammo compared to .40S&W (think it's Hornady Critical Defense, Hornady Critical Duty and the Sig Sauer V-Crown) whereas the 9mm had Punch, Hydra Shok, HST, Syntech Defence, Gold Dot, Gold Dot G2, as well as the aforementioned Hornady offerings - and others that I don't remember. I would think a significant amount of R&D would have to go into each to differentiate them from one another (cuz I certainly can't tell the difference except price). I agree that this seems to be where the market is for these rounds as opposed to making varmint rounds.

For range ammo, I try to snag up .40S&W when I can if the occasional box has been sitting there for a while and bears a price sticker from a few years back (I have had some success in finding these over the years). I am going to keep my eyes peeled for another PCC that runs in .40, as the Sub2K could use a friend.
 
Yes walking into my LGS earlier this year, there is definitely a commensurate amount of various 9mm defensive ammo compared to .40S&W (think it's Hornady Critical Defense, Hornady Critical Duty and the Sig Sauer V-Crown) whereas the 9mm had Punch, Hydra Shok, HST, Syntech Defence, Gold Dot, Gold Dot G2, as well as the aforementioned Hornady offerings - and others that I don't remember. I would think a significant amount of R&D would have to go into each to differentiate them from one another (cuz I certainly can't tell the difference except price).

The world is full of people agonizing over the ultimate caliber, the ultimate make and model of bullet, etc. And in the service ammunition world, there's a lot of market share money at stake if you can put a round in the hands of police departments and real world performance shows better terminal results, better terminal results out of short barreled service pistols, less recoil for the same terminal ballistics, etc.

That goes on even within companies: Winchester and others offer different bullet designs of the same weight in their service lines i.e. bonded jacket designs versus skivved jacket bullet designs. Speer offers law enforcement their Gold Dot versus their Gold Dot 2 versus their Gold Dot Short Barrel for example: same weights and virtually the same velocities. Winchester does similar development and marketing, offering jacketed hollow point, bonded, bonded hollow point, and their T-series; four different models/designs of the same bullet weight in police service ammunition for that caliber.

Now add that all (or maybe nearly all, I don't follow what's happening in the market) the companies then offer a +P version versus the standard velocity version. Winchester says "hold my coffee and doughnut and watch this shyte" and goes them one better by offering 9mm agencies standard velocity, +P, and +P+. There is no SAAMI standard for +P+, by the way. Or wasn't several years ago. They can't do that with 40 S&W because there is no +P standard for 40 S&W: my guess is because the original 40 S&W was designed to fit into existing makes and models of pistols that were engineered to operate with the 9mm - a lot less metal in those firearms when you have to remove some in some areas to take a double stacked .40 S&W instead. I could be wrong on that, but the 40 S&W didn't have to deal with a pressure envelope developed at the turn of the last century like the 9mm and 45 ACP. Ditto the .357 SIG, a merely necked down 40 S&W for the true believers in high velocity.

If that seems like over-kill (and it does to me from an individual standpoint), consider that there are individual cities in the US with 30,000 - 40,000 city police officers. While there is also the county sheriff's office overlaid over that, the state police, the federal alphabet agencies, etc. When they select a caliber, a model of pistol, and a brand and model of ammunition to go with it, there's a lot of testing that goes on, most of it based on the FBI's testing standards with probably a little local extra thrown in, and maybe favouring one LEO shooting scenario over another.

A friend I met in the military while he was serving in the Rangers left there to join the Wyoming Highway Patrol and was shortly also one of their firearms trainers (advancement comes quickly in Wyoming where there aren't many of them and a lot of places can only be described as 'dreary'). He said they decided to choose the 40 S&W 180 grain flavour (can't remember if he told me make and model) because their major concern was a bullet that could best get through automobile metal and glass and still be able to perform effectively on their assailant. They are only law enforcement when it comes to criminal acts involving a motor vehicle; 99% of their work has to do with traffic safety and traffic/transportation ticketing. Which means almost all of their shootings involve vehicles - Scott said he and a lot of other guys had their patrol carbine right in the front seat where they could grab it instead of their sidearm if the fight started while they were still in their PC. So they really don't care whether their round of choice does well dealing with drywall and heavy winter clothing as much as they care if it's constructed so it can go through auto metal and glass and still perform effectively after it's done that.

Anyways... with all that in mind, trying to win the contracts in all those markets and the value of those markets, you should be able to imagine the R&D that goes on as those companies compete between themselves, and how they allot their R&D time and money between calibers, based on what share each caliber has within the law enforcement world.

If you want to amuse yourself picking fly poo out of pepper, you can visit Vista's website: they're the parent company of Federal and Speer and have a website for their law enforcement lines of ammunition. They may have one as well for the personal defense stuff you can buy off the shelves, I don't know. Anyways, here's their website for comparing calibers, weights, designs, etc for Federal and Speer:
http://www.le.vistaoutdoor.com/ammunition/default.aspx

One thing you may or may not notice is the narrow velocity window that they all fall into. Now, if the boutique brands like Double Tap, Underwood, etc can take those same bullets (or cloned backwards designed bullets) load them far hotter to add about a 100 fps or more, and then sell them for far more money than Speer, Federal, Winchester do, you have to wonder why those companies aren't running their duty ammunition the same/similar bullets at the same velocity? Mo' velocity equals mo' performance, right? Just like mo' diameter equals mo' performance, right?

I don't follow the service ammunition world all that closely, but I have yet to hear of a police agency that decided that the best service ammunition they could provide their police officers was from one of the high velocity boutique brands. I'm pretty sure a lot of the reason has to do with those bullets don't do as well at those velocities when subjected to the same testing criteria as all service ammunition does for acceptance. A couple of the main manufacturers ballisticians have said numerous times that, when you load their bullets above the velocity envelope they were designed to properly perform in, what you get as a result is just a crap shoot. Not unlike when the early magnums came out and the cup and core hunting bullets of the day that worked fine in the 30/06 and similar calibers failed when driven hundreds of fps faster.

On the other hand, those boutique brands offering WFN hard lead bullets for using in a handgun intended for hunting or as a bear wrench are a pretty good choice: the majority opinion is still that a hard WFN lead bullet is about as good as it gets for critter defense and hunting, except perhaps for small light animals like whitetails. Handgun velocities can't screw up a hard WFN lead bullet, even if you can manage to add an extra 100 fps or more.

Anyways, to me it's pretty obvious that there's a whole lot of interrelated factors in choosing ammunition, whether it's an enforcement agency with hundreds or perhaps tens of thousands of officers, or whether you're picking ammunition for hunting or to use as the camp bear wrench. Plinking is the easiest: how cheap and accurate enough?

You could solve your ammo access problems by investing in some low cost reloading equipment, of course...
 
+P loadings made a lot of sense back in the '80s and '90s when JHP designs were relatively crude, and needed the extra velocity to increase the chance that they'd actually expand in real world conditions.

This was especially the case with calibers that were relatively low velocity to begin with like .38 Special and .45 ACP.

Nowadays you're probably only getting a marginal increase in performance in most cases, but it made quite a bit of difference a few decades ago.
 
+P loadings made a lot of sense back in the '80s and '90s when JHP designs were relatively crude, and needed the extra velocity to increase the chance that they'd actually expand in real world conditions.

This was especially the case with calibers that were relatively low velocity to begin with like .38 Special and .45 ACP.

Nowadays you're probably only getting a marginal increase in performance in most cases, but it made quite a bit of difference a few decades ago.

I accidentally bought some +P ammunition - didn't look at the label or packaging (not the first time and probably won't be the last) - I found out that the +P did not work in a couple of my PCCs (manual explicitly stated so), so I ended up selling it.
 
The world is full of people agonizing over the ultimate caliber, the ultimate make and model of bullet, etc. And in the service ammunition world, there's a lot of market share money at stake if you can put a round in the hands of police departments and real world performance shows better terminal results, better terminal results out of short barreled service pistols, less recoil for the same terminal ballistics, etc.

That goes on even within companies: Winchester and others offer different bullet designs of the same weight in their service lines i.e. bonded jacket designs versus skivved jacket bullet designs. Speer offers law enforcement their Gold Dot versus their Gold Dot 2 versus their Gold Dot Short Barrel for example: same weights and virtually the same velocities. Winchester does similar development and marketing, offering jacketed hollow point, bonded, bonded hollow point, and their T-series; four different models/designs of the same bullet weight in police service ammunition for that caliber.

Now add that all (or maybe nearly all, I don't follow what's happening in the market) the companies then offer a +P version versus the standard velocity version. Winchester says "hold my coffee and doughnut and watch this shyte" and goes them one better by offering 9mm agencies standard velocity, +P, and +P+. There is no SAAMI standard for +P+, by the way. Or wasn't several years ago. They can't do that with 40 S&W because there is no +P standard for 40 S&W: my guess is because the original 40 S&W was designed to fit into existing makes and models of pistols that were engineered to operate with the 9mm - a lot less metal in those firearms when you have to remove some in some areas to take a double stacked .40 S&W instead. I could be wrong on that, but the 40 S&W didn't have to deal with a pressure envelope developed at the turn of the last century like the 9mm and 45 ACP. Ditto the .357 SIG, a merely necked down 40 S&W for the true believers in high velocity.

If that seems like over-kill (and it does to me from an individual standpoint), consider that there are individual cities in the US with 30,000 - 40,000 city police officers. While there is also the county sheriff's office overlaid over that, the state police, the federal alphabet agencies, etc. When they select a caliber, a model of pistol, and a brand and model of ammunition to go with it, there's a lot of testing that goes on, most of it based on the FBI's testing standards with probably a little local extra thrown in, and maybe favouring one LEO shooting scenario over another.

A friend I met in the military while he was serving in the Rangers left there to join the Wyoming Highway Patrol and was shortly also one of their firearms trainers (advancement comes quickly in Wyoming where there aren't many of them and a lot of places can only be described as 'dreary'). He said they decided to choose the 40 S&W 180 grain flavour (can't remember if he told me make and model) because their major concern was a bullet that could best get through automobile metal and glass and still be able to perform effectively on their assailant. They are only law enforcement when it comes to criminal acts involving a motor vehicle; 99% of their work has to do with traffic safety and traffic/transportation ticketing. Which means almost all of their shootings involve vehicles - Scott said he and a lot of other guys had their patrol carbine right in the front seat where they could grab it instead of their sidearm if the fight started while they were still in their PC. So they really don't care whether their round of choice does well dealing with drywall and heavy winter clothing as much as they care if it's constructed so it can go through auto metal and glass and still perform effectively after it's done that.

Anyways... with all that in mind, trying to win the contracts in all those markets and the value of those markets, you should be able to imagine the R&D that goes on as those companies compete between themselves, and how they allot their R&D time and money between calibers, based on what share each caliber has within the law enforcement world.

If you want to amuse yourself picking fly poo out of pepper, you can visit Vista's website: they're the parent company of Federal and Speer and have a website for their law enforcement lines of ammunition. They may have one as well for the personal defense stuff you can buy off the shelves, I don't know. Anyways, here's their website for comparing calibers, weights, designs, etc for Federal and Speer:
http://www.le.vistaoutdoor.com/ammunition/default.aspx

One thing you may or may not notice is the narrow velocity window that they all fall into. Now, if the boutique brands like Double Tap, Underwood, etc can take those same bullets (or cloned backwards designed bullets) load them far hotter to add about a 100 fps or more, and then sell them for far more money than Speer, Federal, Winchester do, you have to wonder why those companies aren't running their duty ammunition the same/similar bullets at the same velocity? Mo' velocity equals mo' performance, right? Just like mo' diameter equals mo' performance, right?

I don't follow the service ammunition world all that closely, but I have yet to hear of a police agency that decided that the best service ammunition they could provide their police officers was from one of the high velocity boutique brands. I'm pretty sure a lot of the reason has to do with those bullets don't do as well at those velocities when subjected to the same testing criteria as all service ammunition does for acceptance. A couple of the main manufacturers ballisticians have said numerous times that, when you load their bullets above the velocity envelope they were designed to properly perform in, what you get as a result is just a crap shoot. Not unlike when the early magnums came out and the cup and core hunting bullets of the day that worked fine in the 30/06 and similar calibers failed when driven hundreds of fps faster.

On the other hand, those boutique brands offering WFN hard lead bullets for using in a handgun intended for hunting or as a bear wrench are a pretty good choice: the majority opinion is still that a hard WFN lead bullet is about as good as it gets for critter defense and hunting, except perhaps for small light animals like whitetails. Handgun velocities can't screw up a hard WFN lead bullet, even if you can manage to add an extra 100 fps or more.

Anyways, to me it's pretty obvious that there's a whole lot of interrelated factors in choosing ammunition, whether it's an enforcement agency with hundreds or perhaps tens of thousands of officers, or whether you're picking ammunition for hunting or to use as the camp bear wrench. Plinking is the easiest: how cheap and accurate enough?

You could solve your ammo access problems by investing in some low cost reloading equipment, of course...

Rick the information in your posts are very valuable. I actually printed out this information to store in my files for future reference.

Thanks again for your time in replying with such great detail.
 
+P loadings made a lot of sense back in the '80s and '90s when JHP designs were relatively crude, and needed the extra velocity to increase the chance that they'd actually expand in real world conditions.

Can you say "Hi-Vel"? Of course, back then there wasn't the standardized testing for service rifle that could determine whether the claimed extra juice was worth the squeeze. It was a case of mo' velocity must be mo' better. It probably was, but is there anyone who can say for sure?

Nowadays you're probably only getting a marginal increase in performance in most cases, but it made quite a bit of difference a few decades ago.

Last time I saw the forensic pathologist over there that worked with Fackler and who now gets hired as a consultant on police/military service ammunition development comment on that, he said that these days you'd have a hard time making a case for +P having an advantage using the pathology and autopsy reports available to those in the LEO field in the US. That was in response to an earlier comment he made that he applied and now works as a reserve deputy sheriff aside from his day job so that he had some skin in the game, rather than theorizing from the laboratory on the sidelines. This was a few years ago, when a previous question resulted in him saying regulation changes had caused him to change his choice of carry from 40 S&W to 9mm, because he saw no loss in performance but gains in less recoil and more rounds onboard. When he was asked if he was running the standard velocity version or the +P, he said standard, because no difference in performance but slightly less recoil.

But again, as he saw the real world as both a subject matter expert forensic pathologist reviewing hundreds of LEO shootings a year and as a guy who spent some time carrying a gun as a police officer, no difference, use whatever you feel better carrying.
 
Can you say "Hi-Vel"? Of course, back then there wasn't the standardized testing for service rifle that could determine whether the claimed extra juice was worth the squeeze. It was a case of mo' velocity must be mo' better. It probably was, but is there anyone who can say for sure?



Last time I saw the forensic pathologist over there that worked with Fackler and who now gets hired as a consultant on police/military service ammunition development comment on that, he said that these days you'd have a hard time making a case for +P having an advantage using the pathology and autopsy reports available to those in the LEO field in the US. That was in response to an earlier comment he made that he applied and now works as a reserve deputy sheriff aside from his day job so that he had some skin in the game, rather than theorizing from the laboratory on the sidelines. This was a few years ago, when a previous question resulted in him saying regulation changes had caused him to change his choice of carry from 40 S&W to 9mm, because he saw no loss in performance but gains in less recoil and more rounds onboard. When he was asked if he was running the standard velocity version or the +P, he said standard, because no difference in performance but slightly less recoil.

But again, as he saw the real world as both a subject matter expert forensic pathologist reviewing hundreds of LEO shootings a year and as a guy who spent some time carrying a gun as a police officer, no difference, use whatever you feel better carrying.

I've heard from a decent number of American cops with 2 way range experience back in the violent '70s-90s era, that +P loads tended to be more effective within their calibers at the time. While that's not scientifically quantifiable, I'll take their word for it.
 
Back
Top Bottom