I did my first hunt 2 years ago in Manitoba and used a Norinco M14 (successfully).
I got a .308 because it's bigger than .223, can be used in some tacticool rifles, and I would like to hunt in Alberta someday...
Is a .223 enough for deer???
- Thread starter Outcast
- Start date
I did my first hunt 2 years ago in Manitoba and used a Norinco M14 (successfully).
I got a .308 because it's bigger than .223, can be used in some tacticool rifles, and I would like to hunt in Alberta someday...
"...was designed to..." The .223 wasn't designed to be a battle rifle cartridge at all. It was designed as an air crew survival rifle cartridge. As in hunting small game. It was never designed to wound anybody either. Proved to be insufficient for "little communist humans" too. There are multiple reports of the "little, communist, humans" being seriously shot and still being able to kill/wound 'big, non-communist, troopies'.
There was no such thing as 5.56NATO until is was jammed down other NATO country's throats(just like the 7.62NATO had been 10 years or so early) by Robert McNamara.
"...wondering if..." In the .223, it's all about the bullet. Most factory ammo is loaded with varmint bullets. Varmint bullets are designed to expand rapidly upon impact with little penetration and are not suitable for deer sized game. There are bullets being made that are designed for deer sized game, but I don't think there is much, if any, factory ammo being loaded with said bullets. Mind you, I didn't look either.
Personally, I think it's not enough cartridge for deer. Not enough energy.
There was no such thing as 5.56NATO until is was jammed down other NATO country's throats(just like the 7.62NATO had been 10 years or so early) by Robert McNamara.
"...wondering if..." In the .223, it's all about the bullet. Most factory ammo is loaded with varmint bullets. Varmint bullets are designed to expand rapidly upon impact with little penetration and are not suitable for deer sized game. There are bullets being made that are designed for deer sized game, but I don't think there is much, if any, factory ammo being loaded with said bullets. Mind you, I didn't look either.
Personally, I think it's not enough cartridge for deer. Not enough energy.
Rocket Surgery
CGN Ultra frequent flyer
The Lyman reloading manual specifically states that you should not use 223 on deer, and it is not allowed in many states and provinces. Usually the caliber restriction is set to .243+.
The thing that a lot of people, and fudds, don't seem to realize is that modern bullets make more difference than anything. People still quote Elmer Keith and Cooper as though they have relevance in today's hunting world. Here's a tip for you, they don't; With Barnes TSX bullets, Winchester XP3's, and modern smokeless powders, everything changed. The old argument that big fat bullets are best was 'maybe' correct back in the 1950's when you hunted with boolits. We now use medium bore cartridges that go about 2700+ fps in rifles that can make groups at 500 yards, unlike most lever guns.
It's not so much about the caliber anymore as it is the bullet construction. You can get TSX bullets in 223, and I wouldn't hesitate at to use them on deer if it's all I had, but it wouldn't be my first choice. I'd stick with something in 30cal, be it a 30-30, .308, or 300win mag for deer.
The thing that a lot of people, and fudds, don't seem to realize is that modern bullets make more difference than anything. People still quote Elmer Keith and Cooper as though they have relevance in today's hunting world. Here's a tip for you, they don't; With Barnes TSX bullets, Winchester XP3's, and modern smokeless powders, everything changed. The old argument that big fat bullets are best was 'maybe' correct back in the 1950's when you hunted with boolits. We now use medium bore cartridges that go about 2700+ fps in rifles that can make groups at 500 yards, unlike most lever guns.
It's not so much about the caliber anymore as it is the bullet construction. You can get TSX bullets in 223, and I wouldn't hesitate at to use them on deer if it's all I had, but it wouldn't be my first choice. I'd stick with something in 30cal, be it a 30-30, .308, or 300win mag for deer.
If you handload, 6.5x55 is a fantastic cartridge to use. You can start him with popgun loads using 129gr bullets, then move up to 140gr bullets as he gets comfortable. This is the exact path my 11 year old will be taking next year in his first season of big game hunting.
Mark
223 is legal for Deer in NB and Maine for sure, any centerfire is. .22-250 is fairly popular for it here at home. Rocket Surgery is right, with the right loads, you can get by. its not ideal, and shot placement is a bit more critical, but it can be done.
Wow. Just wow.
bearkilr
CGN Ultra frequent flyer
- Location
- Nowhere, ......just past the middle
Any of the Barnes TSX bullets will do ... I'm currently reloading TSX Barnes 70gr BT and they waack the hell out of a tuktu(caribou). Use what you have, be smart and get close and you'll be fine!
Otokiak
Rankin Inlet, NU
CANADA
p.s. if not, listen to all the others and get yourself a 300 winmag and shoot the wee deer from 400 yards away.
Your terrain differs a touch so your weapon choices really don't apply "down south".
Ever have to track one through the dense forests of Rankin Inlet ?
I LOVE threads like this and the answers ... HAHAHA ... some of you are just dandy to read about ...
Otokiak
Rankin Inlet, NU
CANADA
p.s. yes go shoot your deer with your 223 as it's plenty!
Well played!
i guess the inuit use .303's to drop polar bears and such, where Id rather have a .375
If recoil is important, may I suggest the 7mm-08, and 11 year olds will be 16 year olds after 5 seasons, and the rest of us like to dabble with larger calibers sooner or later, perhaps a 270 and a limb-saver may work for him as well. And I think the amount of time spent at the range will likely have more effect than the difference in close calibers...
Congrats on the oppurtunity to take the little gaffer out with ya, you will have a great experience regardless of the caliber.
Rocket Surgery
CGN Ultra frequent flyer
I think with a Steven's 200 scoped and premium bullets you'd be fine for deer out to 150 maybe 200. That's a reasonably accurate rifle and I'm guessing 62g bullets would be fine for head or lung shots. If you can print decent groups at the range, I don't see the problem here. I don't recommend it, but it would work. You could get a Steven's 200 in 308 for $349.00, they're ballistically similar and could be used for cross training. You could even probably sell the .223 and put the money toward something bigger. I'd go anything in 30cal personally.
A lot of people swear by 30-06 or want 300 win mag, not a problem there. It's when people with innacurate semi's start taking 250y shots with 55g 223 bullets you get wounded deer, and that's just not right.
A lot of people swear by 30-06 or want 300 win mag, not a problem there. It's when people with innacurate semi's start taking 250y shots with 55g 223 bullets you get wounded deer, and that's just not right.
- Location
- Somewhere on the Hudson Bay Coast
Any of the Barnes TSX bullets will do ... I'm currently reloading TSX Barnes 70gr BT and they waack the hell out of a tuktu(caribou). Use what you have, be smart and get close and you'll be fine!
Otokiak
Rankin Inlet, NU
CANADA
p.s. if not, listen to all the others and get yourself a 300 winmag and shoot the wee deer from 400 yards away.
Otokiak, I'm interested in your opinion of .224/70 and I would like to know what type of rifle you're shooting it in. I loaded some 53 gr TSXs for a fellow with a 1:14 .22-250 and they wouldn't stabilize. My opinion was that the 70 gr TSX would need a 1:7 twist, has that been your observation?
What caliber is a .223 sideways?
That statement right there says it all.......who is the "DUMB" one?
Some people don't even have an inkling, and it takes a thousand inklings to make a clue. Eagleye.
There is plenty of proof that the tiney .223 with proper bullits will work quite well. Personally I will never use one but thats because I'm a recoil junkey, I'm goin to be taking my .458 win mag launching 510gr chunks of copper covered lead for White Tail does this year or my .375hh artillerary(sp?) piece if i get it back from the smith before hunting season.
P.S. Some of the replies are bordering on epic entertainment
P.S. Some of the replies are bordering on epic entertainment
I'm not familiar with hunting on the island but imagine it involves forest and bush ranges. There is a lot for a new hunter to learn and experience. The 223 seems like an assasins weapon. One deadly shot from a concealed source.
A medium recoiling rifle like the 243 would be a much better choice. It would be hard to fault the whole 308 family, 243, 7MM-08, 308, 358. I used a 243 with 100 grain bullets and was satisfied on the prairies. If ranges are 150 and less a 30-30 lever makes a dandy bush rifle. If money is tight a 303 sporter loaded with 150 gr. bullets is a deadly deer round.
I might suggest a 458 Mag is a bit too large for your needs!
A medium recoiling rifle like the 243 would be a much better choice. It would be hard to fault the whole 308 family, 243, 7MM-08, 308, 358. I used a 243 with 100 grain bullets and was satisfied on the prairies. If ranges are 150 and less a 30-30 lever makes a dandy bush rifle. If money is tight a 303 sporter loaded with 150 gr. bullets is a deadly deer round.
I might suggest a 458 Mag is a bit too large for your needs!
I shot lots of ground hogs with a .223 with 55gr and 60gr soft point bullets and it blows
them apart pretty good up to about 100 yds but after 100 yds there inners were still in tak
but were still dead and they never made a step to there hole.So I would say if your boy can hit a pop can at 100 yds and he as I good side shot on a deer it should be ok.There use to some kid up in Manatoulin Island that used a mini 14 and he had no trouble bagging his deer.If you want to go to a larger caliber Remington makes down load shells called Managed Recoil just for youth and women its in .270,30 06 and 7mm mag.
them apart pretty good up to about 100 yds but after 100 yds there inners were still in tak
but were still dead and they never made a step to there hole.So I would say if your boy can hit a pop can at 100 yds and he as I good side shot on a deer it should be ok.There use to some kid up in Manatoulin Island that used a mini 14 and he had no trouble bagging his deer.If you want to go to a larger caliber Remington makes down load shells called Managed Recoil just for youth and women its in .270,30 06 and 7mm mag.
I've learned alot here, like; only a barnes bullet will kill a deer with a .223....and big calibers and wide, heavy bullets aren't relevant anymore.....My experience has been that wide, heavy, bullets kill best of all, and alot of folks are drinking the advertisers' Koolaid!
